RAPTURE CHAT v.4
 
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RAPTURE CHAT v.4

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Yohanan
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Carry on!

Previous thread here.

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KolleenWStone
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Interesting and telling!!

Charles' hopes of multi-faith coronation dashed by Church

13 April 2012

Prince Charles' hopes of a multi-faith coronation suffered a blow when the Church of England asserted the historic importance of a solely Christian service when he becomes King. In a rebuke to the Prince's hopes of inviting Muslims, Hindus and others to take an equal role in Westminster Abbey, the Church declared that Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams will design the coronation service.

The highly unusual statement was the Church's first official pronouncement on how the coronation will be handled and it comes amid intensifying controversy over the role of non-Christian faiths and non-Anglican Christian denominations.

Charles has long made clear his yearning for a ceremony in which Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Sikh beliefs take a place alongside the doctrines of the Church of England.

Dr Williams, however, has insisted that the Prince must restrain his interest in other faiths and stay within the 'constitutional framework' that makes him Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

The intervention from the Church made plain that Charles will be on his own if he tries to introduce other faiths into the religious coronation service at the Abbey.

The Church's leading lay official, General Synod Secretary General William Fittall said yesterday: 'The coronation service is conducted by the Archbishop of Canterbury, whose duty this has normally been since 1066.

"He, consequently, takes the lead in preparing the order of service for the approval of the sovereign."

Mr Fittall, a former senior civil servant at the Home Office who has led the CofE bureaucracy for four years, delivered his statement in reply to a request from a Synod member to 'clarify who decides the form of the next coronation service".

The statement follows remarks by two leading Anglican prelates in the past few days on the importance of the Christian monarchy.

Earlier this week, Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu told the Daily Mail that "the Church of England reminds the nation that in this country the Queen is Defender of the Faith, head of the Commonwealth and head of state."

He said of the relationship between Church and monarch: "You change it at your peril".

Dr Sentamu's comments came in the wake of an interview given at the beginning of the month by Bishop of Rochester Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, who said that "the coronation service is singularly Christian in its form" and added that the Prince's duty is to defend 'the historic faith of our Church".

Dr Sentamu, who is number two in the CofE hierarchy, and Dr Nazir-Ali are the two leading foreign-born bishops in the Church. It may not be coincidental that the Archbishop of York, from Uganda, and the Bishop of Rochester, from Pakistan, come from parts of the world where Christianity is under heavy pressure from Islam.

The official confirmation of Dr William's lead role in the service yesterday added weight to the growing view that the Prince will be compelled to accept a traditional and solely Anglican coronation.

Other faiths will get a look in only at a subsequent and symbolically less important event to be arranged later.

An article in the Spectator magazine last month said Charles wants a second ceremony at Westminster Hall, inside the Palace of Westminster, which would admit Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Sikh beliefs alongside those of non-Anglican Christians. This would be held at a later date.

The Prince, who will take the title Defender of the Faith when he becomes King, said 12 years ago that he wished to be seen rather as a Defender of Faith.

His push for a shift to a multi-faith monarchy alarmed many churchmen and politicians who saw it undermining both longstanding constitutional practice and the monarch's position as Supreme Governor of the Church.

Charles is said to be determined to have a 'focused and telecentric' coronation that reflects a new era and a new kind of reign.

But Dr Williams delivered a warning against undermining the Christian monarchy when he went to Lambeth Palace nearly four years ago.

The Archbishop said early in 2003: "I am glad the Prince of Wales takes faith communities as seriously as he does but the actual title, there is a historical, constitutional framework for it which you don't just change by fiat."

Constitutional historian Professor Anthony Glees welcomed the Church's assertion of its role.

"I am pleased that the Church is drawing attention to the importance of Christianity in the coronation, which of course we all hope will be a long time coming," he said.

"We should remember Winston Churchill's "finest hour" speech in 1940, in which he said the Battle of Britain was about to begin and that on it depended "the survival of Christian civilisation".

"The reminder that this is a Christian country will be welcomed by many who fought to preserve it and those who remember them. They will be glad that the Archbishop of Canterbury has taken the point."

Some Christian groups remain unhappy that the Prince is thought to be considering a multi-faith event to follow the coronation.

Colin Hart of the Christian Institute think tank said: "There are huge obstacles to a multi-faith coronation service and the constitution would unravel if Charles tried to do something different.

"But I find it bizarre that he intends to take a Christian coronation oath and then stage a second ceremony at which he will declare loyalty to other faiths. That appears to be breaking his oath."

 

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Terry
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Interesting; thanks.  If May 5 is The Day, nobody will be attending the first ceremony anyway.

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Terry
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Here's an idea.  We could pray they have a "Thief on the Cross moment", and at the last minute (or so) leave their handlers dumbfounded and panic stricken.

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Terry
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Can't you just hear Screwtape hollering You fool, you let them slip away!

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Blue
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I pray the whole world would receive Jesus as their King and we would just skip the tribulation.

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Yohanan
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One thing to keep in mind is IF Charles is the bad guy, his coronation doesn't necessarily reveal him as such. We may still be here after the coronation.

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Terry
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Sigh.  Then we can blame the Awe brothers for misleading us.  Click.  On to Pentecost or Feast of Trumpets.

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Yohanan
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Nobody knows for sure. We speculate based on the best information we have. We get excited at the prospect that we could all be going home soon but so far everyone has missed the mark, so we just keep trying.

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Paul R
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Very revealing and interesting report - great find Kolleen! And thank you Yohanan for your balanced and measured comments. I fully agree. We need to temper and test our expectations with the truth as we anticipate the moment we’re all waiting for. I think our departure date is wrapped in mystery like a Christmas present – to be opened and revealed at the right moment.

‘Tis all a matter of timing, methinks. I agree with many commentators that the book of Revelation is not necessarily a chronological account, but rather a series of visions – some of which overlap. The question is: where do we, the raptured saints, fit in?

In the particular vision when the seals are opened, the Apostle John is called up to heaven, the throne room, in Revelation 4. (The Lord Jesus’s last words in Rev 3 are: “To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne…”). John describes what he sees and then – in the same vision – tells of the opening of the first seal and he is told to “Come and see” the white horse and its rider with the bow… followed by: “…and a crown was given unto him…”. Note the order and the tense: he actually watches the coronation happening from heaven.

The 24 elders are also present, because they have just sung their worship song (Rev 5) including the words: “…And has made us unto our God kings and priests…”. Some say the number 24 is not a literal number, but represents Israel (12 tribes) plus the saints (from the 12 apostles). Maybe. And we know we are already a royal priesthood from 1 Peter chapter 2 and other references.

These events all occur within the same vision.

The issue of the rider’s “bow” also intrigues me. The Greek word toxon, translated as “bow” is also used for a rainbow. It’s common knowledge that a rainbow was seen over Buckingham Palace and Windsor Castle when the Queen’s death was announced. Interestingly though, she allegedly died at Balmoral in Scotland and the rainbow was seen in London.

In the olden days before radio and telegrams, as the news was taken from town to town, a town crier would loudly proclaim in the streets: “The king is dead – long live the king!” It seems to me like that is the moment when the heir is acknowledged as the new monarch. That’s the moment the rainbow appeared over the English capital.

There is also a “bow” around Father God’s throne.

Random thoughts, ramblings and speculation.

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