I was watching an interesting Randy Alcon youtube about Heaven. I was surprised by a few things ... He said we are going to be spending more time on the earth than in the city of heaven. I was aware that heaven will come down and hover over the earth during the Millennium but I didn’t realize after the new Heaven and Earth are restored ... heaven will literally be placed upon the earth. Is this true? It won’t stay in the sky? Also will heaven be in a cube shape? Also in Revelation 4 John sees the 24 elders and the church in the throne room of God with their crowns worshipping Jesus. Then in Revelation 7:14-15 ‘’ ... these are they which came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.“ But then you have this verse in Revelation 21:22 “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it”. So this has me confused? I know the 3rd temple will not last long and be replaced with a 4th temple when Jesus rules and reigns. Does this mean the throne and temple will be removed from heaven and be placed in the earthly city of Jerusalem? :feedback As a wise man once said, we shall see. I had heard that the celestial city was cubed shaped and suspended above the Earth. We are told the Earth will abide forever and God will make His abode with men! TR Geri, from what I read, there is no "Church" in Heaven. BUT there IS a BRIDE. From all the descriptions, there is a BRIDE and Jesus is the GROOM, and they are IN-LOVE with each other. This is the FAMILY or KINGDOM of Heaven. The FACT in what we experience as HUMANS, is that we FIRST have a MARRIAGE, just Like Adam and Eve. They procreated and FRUITFULLY multiplied. As Humans, the CHILDREN, or SEED, are not CHOSEN & NOT in - love with their FATHER/GROOM that produced them, and at times need CORRECTION (Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child?) You see, the BRIDE doesn't need CHASTISING (Tribulation), and the BRIDE is CHOSEN/ELECTED. Mark 13:20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's SAKE, whom HE hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. The ELECT, or CHOSEN are the BRIDE/5 WISE Virgins, the 5 FOOLISH were REJECTED - Matt.25:12. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know YOU not. Rev.12:6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days. - [Before 2nd ADVENT/Resurrection]. This NEXT verse is a REITERATION on HOW and Where She's Taken.] 14. And to the woman were given TWO WINGS of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. As the SERPENT and CO, were BARRED from HEAVEN where the FACE of the SERPENT has no access! - The SERPENT is "13. ...cast unto the EARTH, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child]. This WOMAN (All ISRAEL, Not JEWS) is PERSECUTED for 42Months - BEFORE the 42Months of "BEAST" World Government. Rev.11:2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months. - [DAVID, in CONTEXT, the HOLY CITY, is NOT old JERUSALEM.] JOHN is NOW writing ONLY about the BRIDE who is DOWNTRODDEN. Rev.21:2. And I John saw the HOLY CITY, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [The following tells of the HOLY CITY - not Martyred - Down Trodden] PROBLEM!! in NEW Jerusalem, - ...Rev.21:22. And I saw NO TEMPLE therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Rev.3:12. Him that OVERCOMETH will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,... As you see the DESCRIPTION of the NEW Jerusalem, with 12 Foundations of Precious Stones and 12 PEARLY Gates & Being as Long as Wide as High! Rev.21:16. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. The WOMAN is the 144,000 REDEEMED from EARTH to a PLACE Prepared! John 14:3. And if I go and PREPARE a PLACE for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. MEASURING back 1260Days from the END (Resurrection/Advent) - Last TRUMP what PAUL wrote in 1 Cor.15:52, I don't BELIEVE that he referred to TRUMPETS of REVELATION, which were writtem ~90AD. He meant the Feast of Trumpets, or more specifically Rosh Hashana of 2023. On calculating the 1260 DAYS I found April 4th 2020 was when the rapture could happen. - On opening the HEBCAL Internet site, I found Nisan 10, being that Date. I previously THOUGHT the rapture to be Shavuot II (Pentecost) - as I took 1,335 DAYS from the BEGINNING Day of 5777. I BELIEVE that JOEL was referring to the THREE Pentecosts - the one in ACTS.2:16, which one also comes 50DAYS after Passover and occurs on May 30th 2020. The OTHER is for the SEALED or HOLY CITY [Children of ZION] that is Downtrodden before RAPTURE of April 4th 2020. Joel 2:23. Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, [Acts 2:16] and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, AND the latter rain in the first [month]. - NISAN 1-10. 42 Months of World Government (Rev.13:5) STARTS on Nisan 1, 2020 (42Months before 2nd Advent/Resurrection of September 16th 2023 TRUMP) Before RAPTURE, the WOMAN is attacked with a FLOOD, from Devil. Rev.12:15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. (and the SEED??? of WOMAN?) 17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Dan.9:26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the [AC] prince that shall come shall destroy the [Jerusalem] city and the The SEED are NOT the BRIDE, but left behind to be KILLED. Rev.6:9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 11. And WHITE ROBES were given unto EVERY ONE [ALL??] of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled. Rev.7:13. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in WHITE ROBES? and whence came they? Rev.9: 4. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. From WORLD Government on NISAN 1 - 2020 (March 26th 2020) till 666 issued (July 14th 2020) And the 2,300 Evenings and Mornings HAS NOT happened before with Antiocus Epiphanes. WHY? Matt.24:15. When ye therefore SHALL [FUTURE] see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:). Dan.8:14. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the SO HOW LONG is the SAINT and HOST TRODDEN UNDER foot? - 1,150 Days from Buying & Selling, as in Rev.13:17. HOST = Rev7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,... Hi Olaf, The Bride of Christ - is the church, Jesus said “I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevent it.” The church started 50 days after the resurrection at Pentecost - the Holy Spirit indwelt the believers and this started the church age and it ends at the time of the rapture - Revelation 4:1 (the door of heaven was open - trumpet sound and come up command voice). The church makes up both Jews and Gentiles that believe and trusted in the finished work of Jesus only for salvation and asked Jesus to be personal Savior and Lord of their life. The O.T. Saints and those believers who died before Pentecost and those who get saved after the rapture during the tribulation time are not part of the church (Bride of Christ) instead they are the Wife of God. They will be the Guests at the heavenly wedding ceremony and at the feast banquet celebration. The Parable of the 10 virgins - 5 had oil because they were saved and the Holy Spirit was living inside of them but the other 5 were not believers ... yet they were fellowshipping with the saved virgins just like in Church today and on Christian forum boards there are many unsaved that hang out with the Christians. This is why they were left out (not ready) when the bridegroom came, they were not truly saved/not ready for the marriage ceremony in heaven ... so the door was shut. And they were saying “Lord, Lord, open to us. But He answered and said, Very I say unto you, I know you not.” The same applies at the Great White Throne Judgment ... “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” The wedding for the church (bride of Christ) takes place in heaven and the honeymoon will last 7 years while chaos unfolds on the earth. God is not through with His chosen people, the Jews ... the 7 year tribulation is the time of Jacob’s trouble ... not the church. Many Jews will have their eyes open under the ministry of the 144,000 (Jewish virgin men) and the 2 witnesses. A great revival happens after the rapture ... for both the Jews and the Gentiles. Revelation 7 is all about the tribulation saints who were martyred for their faith and are seen in heaven. Again the church was raptured out prior to this scene (Revelation 4:1 is pre-trib). So the Revelation 7 crowd you read about is not the church but the tribulation saints. Interesting about Rev. 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,… I will be studying this further. Thanks. Olaf, you are mistaken in several areas. I don't know if I will be able to persuade you of where you have misinterpreted things, but I will attempt to do so. Mark 13:20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s SAKE, whom HE hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. The elect here is not the Church. It is the nation of Israel that has to be brought into belief in their Messiah, Jesus Christ. Has the Church been chosen? Certainly. I have no problem with identifying anyone who is in Christ as being one of the "elect." But you miss the point that in that time frame, the "elect" being referred to are those who have been appointed to salvation during the Tribulation. The Church has already been taken out and God is dealing with the nation of Israel. Just because the same word is used to describe believers does not indicate they are the same group. One of the worst methods of sophistry is to seize upon a word used in the Bible and try to wring an interpretation out of it based entirely on the recurrence of the same word used elsewhere. We cannot ignore context! There are indeed times when the careful analysis of a word can be enlightening. It can come down to a matter of opinion as to whether the use of a particular word includes or excludes a certain group of people, and I want to be fair about things. https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/who-are-the-elect/ Q Some Christians are saying Jews are the “elect”; I know they are God’s chosen people. Question is… Who exactly are the “elect”? Are Christians, born-again believers part of the “elect” as well? This is a position I agree with. Your statement that the elect in Matthew 24 must be "the Bride" is not backed up with sufficient evidence, and I view it as an error. The ELECT, or CHOSEN are the BRIDE/5 WISE Virgins, the 5 FOOLISH were REJECTED – Matt.25:12. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know YOU not. Yes, the five wise virgins are among the elect. But the five virgins are NOT the Bride! They belong to the reception party who greet the Bridegroom and the Bride upon their return from having spent seven days in the wedding chamber. https://gracethrufaith.com/topical-studies/parables/the-parable-of-the-ten-virgins/ 13. Watch therefore, for YE know NEITHER the day NOR the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. No, no, no. The Bride is depicted as a virgin, not someone who is pregnant and waiting to be taken to the Father's House. That isn't the way it works in the Biblical model. You are confusing images. The woman in Revelation 12 is most definitely NOT the Church. It clearly is the remnant of the nation of Israel, as can be seen by comparing the passage in Matthew 24. 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Matthew 24:16 This WOMAN (All ISRAEL, Not JEWS) is PERSECUTED for 42Months – BEFORE the 42Months of “BEAST” World Government. Rev.11:2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months. – [DAVID, in CONTEXT, the HOLY CITY, is NOT old JERUSALEM.] Stop this allegorical nonsense, Olaf! First, in context, yes the Holy City is absolutely old Jerusalem. You cannot twist scripture into making this about the Church being persecuted. And the Woman, Israel - yes, believing Jews - is persecuted during the final 42 months, not the first 42 months. It is absurd to make it say otherwise, as the Woman is delivered from Bosrah by the Messiah at the conclusion of the Tribulation, when Armageddon takes place. I can see what you are doing in your posts. Your are sadly mistaken on these matters, as you are suggesting the Church will be here for the first 42 months of the Tribulation. If you persist in posting these errors, the posts will be removed, as this is a pre-tribulation group and we will not allow posts which promote "pre-wrath" interpretations. The Church has no part in the 70th week of Daniel. JOHN is NOW writing ONLY about the BRIDE who is DOWNTRODDEN. Rev.21:2. And I John saw the HOLY CITY, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [The following tells of the HOLY CITY – not Martyred – Down Trodden] PROBLEM!! in NEW Jerusalem, – …Rev.21:22. And I saw NO TEMPLE therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. New Jerusalem is truly a literal city, and not a figure of speech for the Church. 9By faith he dwelt in the promised land as a stranger in a foreign country. He lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. Hebrews 11:9-10 This allegorical interpretation goes back to St. Augustine and it is a dangerous perversion of Biblical meaning. For one thing, you don't measure an allegory. The entire method renders the clear understanding of language meaningless. …25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. Galatians 4:25 This is an example of legitimate Biblical allegory. It should be noted that Mount Sinai is a literal mountain, just as present-day Jerusalem is a literal city, and New Jerusalem is a literal city in heaven. There is an allegory applied there, based upon an actual place, not a figurative symbol of the Church. The WOMAN is the 144,000 REDEEMED from EARTH to a PLACE Prepared! Again, you are wrong. We are never told the 144,000 from the 12 tribes are taken into the wilderness. John 14:3. And if I go and PREPARE a PLACE for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. You are really off-base to say that the promise of Jesus to receive us unto Himself is explained by the Woman fleeing into the wilderness for 1,260 days. Again, you are drawing that conclusion based upon two words, "prepare" and "place." That is really a slip-shod method of interpretation, and only generates confusion. I'm not even going to comment on the remainder of your post, as it is based upon the same "Alice in Wonderland/Humpty Dumpty" (means whatever I say, just because) random interpretation. That is known as "eisegesis." Eisegesis: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas Don't do that. If you persist in this method of substitution to suit your preferences, the posts will be removed promptly. Indeed the Word of God is not given over to human interpretations. God will not allow such to be the case. This indeed about rightly dividing the Word of God. And we must allow the Holy Spirit to reveal the Lord's mind and heart! As stated on another thread. We can surely test the spirit and find that many indeed are saved and in love with Christ. That said, it doesn't make their theology, doctrines or teachings perfect! Also again, when we endeavor to interpret God's word to satisfy our itchy ears and unsatisfied spirits we always make presumptions in our understanding that simply don't line up with the whole of scripture. Not speaking of a presumptuous spirit, but speaking of assumptions that are in error! TR hi Geri, the New Jerusalem, the city built by God, is going to be so beautiful. In Revelation 21:1-2, God has made a new heaven and a new earth, the first heaven and first earth are passed away and there is no more sea. Then New Jerusalem descends out of heaven, from God, to earth-the new earth. This is after the millennium, after the great white throne judgement in Revelation 20. God truly is from everlasting (from before the creation of the first heaven and first earth) to everlasting (the eternal state in which He makes a new heaven and new earth and a custom designed city/home to dwell with His people forever.) Revelation 21:1-4 New King James Version (NKJV) In Revelation 21:9-10, still talking about the eternal state, the bride, the Lamb's wife is who dwells in this marvelous city: Revelation 21:9-10 New King James Version (NKJV) In Revelation 22 we see that the throne of God and of the Lamb are in the city, New Jerusalem, and the river of life comes from their throne. In contrast, during the millennium, Jesus is ruling from earthly Jerusalem, the site He rules from is "in the tabernacle of David". In the millennium there will still be a need to seek justice. Isaiah 16:5 - millennium Revelation 22 - eternal state The throne of God and river of life and tree of life are not in earthly Jerusalem in the millennium, they are in New Jerusalem that descends when the new heaven and new earth are created. So why does it say that the nations will walk by its light and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it?-Rev 21:24-26 These cannot be unsaved kings, because nothing unclean can enter it- Rev 21:27. These must be saved peoples who have been accounted worthy to not only be "kings", but are worthy to enter the city, and this verse hints that there will be nation groupings on the new earth that God creates. But the bride the Lamb's wife is dwelling in the city, not just entering it or visiting it with gifts. During the millennial reign, there is still sun and moon, but in the eternal state where New Jerusalem is brought down, there is no more sun and moon: Isaiah 30:25-26 - at the second advent, millennial reign then established Revelation 21:23 - Eternal state Revelation 22:5 - Eternal state It's going to be wonderful! I don't at all wish to come across as harsh or unreasonable. I do want to guard against nonsensical interpretations. When someone suggests that Jesus' promise to "prepare a place for us" that where He is there we may be also is in actuality a cryptic reference to being kept from the Antichrist during the midst of the Tribulation and go into the wilderness for 42 months, then it's not just a minor disagreement. It's a huge misapplication of a verse which makes perfectly good sense on its own and does not require Revelation 12 to understand it. I believe that what Olaf is proposing is that the Bride of Christ will be under the rule of the Antichrist for 42 months, in an allegorical wilderness, until the real or "Great Tribulation" begins. That does not at all match what is stated in Matthew 24 and must be rejected as a faulty interpretation. It plainly refers to those who are "in Judea" escaping. It is not a poetic way of describing the Bride of Christ. Preach it brother! I do appreciate your dividing of God's word. Thankfully my understanding of God's word must always be sprinkled with much grace! TR :amen: We appreciate your knowledge, David and no worries ... you never come across as being harsh with your teachings in setting the record straight. I learned something new today ... I thought the 5 wise virgins that didn’t run out of oil represented the bride and here they are the guests ... your quote “they belong to the reception party who greet the Bridegroom and the Bride upon their return from having spent seven days in the wedding chamber.” 
13. Watch therefore, for YE know NEITHER the day NOR the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
This BRIDE was ISRAEL, and NOT the JEWS. - Yes, Jesus came as a JEW, but the BRIDE is the WOMAN who EXPECTS (Pregnant with Child) Jesus to take HER to the FATHER'S House.
Rev.3:12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and my new name.
Obviously, the NEW Jerusalem is NO LONGER a piece of REAL ESTATE, but OVERCOMERS!
So the OVERCOMERS were in GOD'S Eyes PERFECT through redemption, and not REAL-ESTATE.
Rev.12:6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a PLACE PREPARED of God, that they should feed her THERE a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.sanctuary [Saint]; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So the 2 Witnesses will SHOW the TRUTH to those who HAVE NOT been SEALED.
5. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.sanctuary [SAINT] be cleansed [Morally JUSTIFIED]. (See Concordance - No Sanctuary now)
2,300Evenings&Mornings = 1150 Days (Read Gen.1:5) 1x Half day +1x Half day = 1 WHOLE day.
Dan.8:12. And an host was given [him] against the daily [Activity] [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.
A In both the Old and New Testaments, the word elect means chosen. In Old Testament times, the elect were God’s Chosen people, the Jews (Isaiah 45:4). During this age, the Church is God’s elect (1 Peter 1:1), and after the Church is gone Tribulation believers will be His elect. (Matt. 24:22) In the Millennium, Israel will once again be called God’s elect (Isaiah 65:22)
13. Watch therefore, for YE know NEITHER the day NOR the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
This BRIDE was ISRAEL, and NOT the JEWS. – Yes, Jesus came as a JEW, but the BRIDE is the WOMAN who EXPECTS (Pregnant with Child) Jesus to take HER to the FATHER’S House.
Rev.3:12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and my new name.
Obviously, the NEW Jerusalem is NO LONGER a piece of REAL ESTATE, but OVERCOMERS!
Rev.12:6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a PLACE PREPARED of God, that they should feed her THERE a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
All Things Made New - the eternal state
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
The New Jerusalem
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth, in the tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness.”
The River of Life -
22 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
25 There will be on every high mountain
And on every high hill
Rivers and streams of waters,
In the day of the great slaughter,
When the towers fall.
26 Moreover the light of the moon will be as the light of the sun,
And the light of the sun will be sevenfold,
As the light of seven days,
In the day that the Lord binds up the bruise of His people
And heals the stroke of their wound.
23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
