I had an eye opening experience this weekend looking at 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8) And seeing how I missed the point that Paul was making and how that verse has been interpreted to mean "absent from the body = present with the Lord." I believe many pastors that I've listened to used that latter interpretation, but it appears that isn't what Paul was saying. If I look at his words "and willing to be absent from the body" appears to say that its Paul's desire and his willingness, but it doesn't say "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." What spurred that discovery is digging into Thessalonians 4:16-17. “For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Reading commentaries many say that the dead are already in Heaven and that the first to rise are those who return with Christ at the rapture and are reunited with their eternal bodies. In my finite mind - I am not able to assemble 2 Cor 5:8 and Thes 4:16-17 with the understanding that the dead are in Heaven. My brain hurts trying to figure this one out. Anyone have wisdom on this topic? Indeed a conundrum! Check out my latest thread. TR Does the claim, "...the dead in Christ shall rise first..." become part of your question, Todd? Does "rise" mean bodily from a grave, wherever that may be? (i.e., lots of bodies decay and even "graves" themselves over thousands of years disappear / disperse / explode / get washed away / ...) How about this? I suspect (not dogmatic) that souls / spirits do not necessarily possess locale -- like possessing some certain coordinates in a certain frame of reference. The phrase "with the Lord," then, may not necessarily specify locale. When saints' spirits are reunited with bodies (incorruptible) then they again possess locale. I dunno. Good question. :yes: :yes: :yes: Is "soul sleep" mixed into the examination? PS - you asked for wisdom and merely got a bunch of questions returned. Sorry. Seems to come down to understanding and interpretation! That's where the notion of doctrinal truth comes from. That said, God who is love and loves us will sort out the details! TR Great questions MWS and great point TR. As for the dead in Christ are first to rise - I'm ok on that front. I'll just rest in the fact that we're going to be with Jesus and how/when is up to the Father -- amen to God loves us and will sort it all out TR!
