Point well taken. We can however fall towards the other extreme as well. God was kind and gracious for giving us His prophetic word, for sure! But it does seem to me that a balance is needed. IE: staying away from dogmatic interpretations. It is enough to say that we are living in the end times, and we continue to see His prophetic word be fulfilled. As to how that specifically manifests itself on a daily basis I'll leave to the Lord. The other aspect of balance, is just simply trusting God, IMHO! Indeed teaching and interpretation of God's word has and can take on a life of it's own. That said, we would do well to remember that it is His Word! TR David, You are correct that "all the people" are not limited to Israel , but all the nations, includes different kindred, races. Question is, what kind of covenant has God made with "all the people" in history? Noahic covenant ? Not likely because God cannot break this covenant. The only covenant I can think of is the salvation God has made with "all the people" through Jesus Christ. It's for all the people, and is available to all the people. Many of us understand this covenant as the new covenant. Even though God didn't use the word "church" explicitly, but we see the shadow of the church in that verse. You suggest the breaking of the staff Beauty occurs prior to the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus. You also agree that "which I had made with all the people" has nothing to do with Israel because you said all the people are all the nations. And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD What kind of covenant has God broken with all the nations prior to the betrayal of Jesus and crucifixion? Also, there is no biblical and historical evidence of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan being cut off by God in one month. And the appearance of Anti Christ the foolish shepherd is still in future. Why would God place his appearance immediately after the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus? When we come to interpret scripture, we should never put ourselves into boxes. And in this case, try to explain away scripture with historical events. Prophecy points events to future. If they have already happened, there should be historical evidence to confirm it. But in the case of Zechariah 11, three shepherds are cut off by God, God breaks a covenant with all the people, and the appearance of Anti Christ, we haven't found their fulfillment in history. Why can't we find them in future? Genesis 3:15 does hint the coming of Messiah and the church era. Yohanan, going back to "Jesus doesn't know the day and hour", I have to disagree with you that Jesus doesn't know the day and hour at all. While he said those words, he was in a human body. But after his ascension to heaven, he knows when the rapture is. 2nd Coming, have you ever heard this story: As a senior citizen was driving down the freeway, his car phone rang. Answering, he heard his wife's voice urgently warning him, "Herman, I just heard on the news that there's a car going the wrong way on 280. Please be careful!" "It's not just one car, " said Herman. "It's hundreds of them!" Think about that. 2nd Coming, Check out my post ... about 8 back on this thread ... I came across an interesting theory that the disciples were not left clueless ... they understood exactly what Jesus meant by “no man knows the day or hour”. Some watchers believe its an idiom pointing to Feast of Trumpets. His disciples would have known what He meant since they were familiar with the practice of determining the start date of that particular feast day. _________ This is how it was explained ... All Jewish Feast Days began on a Full Moon, except for Rosh Hashanah, which began with the beginning of the New Moon. Thus, they would send two priests out to watch for it and report upon seeing the first sliver of the New Moon, to the Sanhedrin, who would sanctify it and then all of the future feasts and festivals would be set. So,due to the ambiguity of exactly when Rosh would start, it was also called, “the day no man knows the day or hour”! So, some think Jesus was referring to a future Rosh. Also, of interest is the text of Matthew 24:27, “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” As soon as the new moon was sighted by the two witnesses, the Sanhedrin would send runners from the east to the west with signal lights to be lit on the high mountains to inform the people to begin counting the New Year from the month and the Feast of Trumpets. They were said to run “like lightning“! _______ So if this theory is correct ... then is Feast of Trumpets considered the rapture day or the starting point of the tribulation period? :whistle: You got me thinking of that hilarious scene from the movie “Planes, Trains and Automobiles” ... :mdrmdr: So if this theory is correct … then is Feast of Trumpets considered the rapture day or the starting point of the tribulation period? Or it might be the time for the Second Coming, which would place the rapture 2520 days prior to that, assuming there is no gap between the rapture and the start of the Tribulation. Of course, I might be mistaken. There are two different types of white robe treatment in Book of Revelation. Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; They are the raptured saints, not tribulation saints. They belong to church era. They come to Jesus by faith, not by seeing any evidence, that is, they never saw Christ in their livelihood, but come to Christ based on their faith. Their reward is a white robe "given" to them in heaven. Revelation 7:13 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, "and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb". These saints come out from tribulation. They are the left behind who come to Christ, but fail to keep their life due to earthquake, wars, famine, natural disaster. They die and go straight to heaven. But instead of being rewarded with a white robe, they need to wash their robe, and make them white in the blood of Jesus. It is because they come to faith by witnessing the evidence, by witnessing the tribulation event foretold by God. They need to keep their salvation, maintain it, by keeping their white robe clean and washed. or else , they may lose their salvation. There is no more once saved, always saved in tribulation. This is why Jesus fore warns them" if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life" " be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life". The salvation in tribulation is quite different from the salvation we are facing today. The reason I bring this up, is because Zechariah 11:10. 10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. I have suggested this breaking of covenant is the removal of church from earth. God makes this covenant possible with "all the people" on earth through the blood of Jesus Christ. After the removal of the church, the blood covenant is still available in tribulation. But the nature of blood covenant has been changed, They have to be responsible for their own salvation. They need to overcome and endure, so that Jesus will not blot out their names from book of life. It does seem after God breaks the covenant in Zechariah 11 by removing the church, God enters a different type of covenant with people in tribulation. Jesus' blood still can save them, but they are responsible for their own salvation. It's kind of going back to the old testament era when people need to keep their faith on right course. David, When you see the three shepherds war happen, don't forget that I have told you so. This is also the joyful moment for you.
