I reckon the Jews that flee to Petra ... if they are wearing a watch that also shows not only the time but the date ... perhaps ... they can figure out when the 2nd coming is. But what if, their watch battery stops working? Also will the Jews know the tribulation is only for 7 years? How do they get this knowledge ... from the 2 witnesses and 144,000 ministry? Perhaps they will be in the dark about the whole time frame of the calamities? :whistle: You wrote " When Zechariah breaks the staff Beauty, he is annulling the covenant that restrained the Gentiles from oppressing God’s people, Israel" Zechariah became a prophet in 520 BC. According to what you said, the restraint was lifted off, there should be more oppression against Israel from that time on. We learn from history since 520 BC, the oppression against Israel has been stopped. When they came back to their land in 538 BC, they were bothered and oppressed by Samaritans when they tried to build their second temple. They stopped the work for 18 years. God appeared to Haggai in 520 BC, and urged them to complete their work on the second temple. Motivated by God, Darius agreed and gave decree to people not to bother their work. I don't see oppression against them like what you have suggested Also, prior to the breaking of covenant with all the people, God said he would cut off three shepherds in one month. Can you justify what God said by quoting historical and biblical evidence if this is the case? And immediately after the breaking of covenant, a foolish shepherd appears. Most of us agree this foolish shepherd is Anti Christ. How do you justify his appearance in the 6th century BC? "Not according to the King of kings and it is Him that I will believe, not man’s interpretations." Has Jesus ever said there would be no warning prior to rapture? You wrote "The Church was not formed until the Book of Acts, not during the time of Zechariah." The church is prophesied in Genesis 3:15, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Is there anything wrong for God to prophesy the church in Zechariah 11, since he has also prophesied the coming of the church in Genesis 3? Has Jesus ever said there would be no warning prior to rapture? Jesus said we would know the season but if He doesn't know the day or the hour then how can He give us a warning? And immediately after the breaking of covenant, a foolish shepherd appears. Most of us agree this foolish shepherd is Anti Christ. How do you justify his appearance in the 6th century BC? I'm not sure who "most of us" are but of the 11 commentaries I own none of them agree with you. They state that the three shepherds in Zechariah 11 are ruler over Israel. To read into this verse that they mean a prophesied coming of war is not supported by the text. While the Anitchrist is a foolish shepherd, that is not what this text is referring to. The two staffs in the text represent God's desire to show grace to His people, and to unite Judah and Israel. It is not the church. We can easily see that God shows His grace and mercy to the church, but this was accomplished by the sacrifice of His Son. https://biblehub.com/hebrew/haammim_5971.htm Who are "all the people"? In context, that means the nations of the world, and is not the Church. I see not even the slightest hint of the rapture in the text, as the breaking of the staff Beauty occurs prior to the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus. Then the bonds of the Jews are broken by the dispersal into the nations, and finally a false shepherd emerges. That would be the Antichrist. RITAN encourages speculation, even on difficult passages. Just remember that a text without a context is a pretext. The Mods don't know everything; we do try to steer people in the right direction. So a large dose of humility is required. It helps a lot to provide evidence to back up one's opinions. So many times, we've had to deal with those who would dismiss the work of scholars as "the opinion of men," while promoting their own opinions as the pure, unvarnished Word of God. In this case, there doesn't appear to be any "there" there. I'd love to be able to see a veiled hint of the rapture in the passage, but I cannot for the life of me see any such thing. Genesis 3:15 is about the coming of the Redeemer, and does not hint at all concerning the Church. Indeed David. When I had my open vision of the world ending and seeing the Heavens and the Earth being rolled up as a scroll, I after the fact was bummed that the vision did not concern itself directly with the Rapture. Apparently what I viewed was a little further along God's timeline! But then again, we all know that the Rapture and the Second Coming does pre-date the New Heaven and New Earth. Not that saw those, but did witness the destruction of the old order of life! So all things in God's good timing! TR I’m giving you a 1/2 like Yohanan because the first 3 sentences is what I’m still on the fence with. “No man knows the day or hour refers to the rapture” .... If someone can show me a verse that the future rabbis or Jews know the tribulation will last for 7 years so they will be counting down the days for their calamities to end .... then, I might climb back over the fence that this is referring to the rapture vs 2nd coming. 😉 Here’s my 2 cents ... I just found this interesting post on Millennium weekend.org forum board regarding “no man knows the day or the hour” ... this guy ironically goes by the name ... John H. 😉 He believes its a Jewish Idiom that Jesus gave to His disciples and says Jesus is actually telling them when the end shall come. Its on ... drum roll please ... “Feast of Trumpets”. :good: So now I’m starting to climb that chain link fence over to it referring to “perhaps” the rapture after all. :whistle: But now the mystery gets deeper and the million dollar question is ... will Feast of Trumpets be the rapture day or the start of the tribulation period? B-) Millennium weekend.org forum board "No man knows the day or hour" - a Jewish Idiom of the Rapture? Jesus was sitting with His Disciples, on the Mount of Olives, and gave them a series of end time prophecies and clues about His return! Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Matthew 24:36) "But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Jesus seems to tell them that they cannot know the day or hour of His return because He does not even know it? Some scholars claim that He is using a Jewish Idiom and is referencing a certain day that they would know, as Jewish men? Long ago before the Jews understood Astronomy and could pinpoint the arrival of the first new moon of the year, they would estimate it within a two day window. All Jewish Feast Days began on a Full Moon, except for Rosh Hashanah, which began with the beginning of the New Moon. Thus, they would send two priests out to watch for it and report upon seeing the first sliver of the New Moon, to the Sanhedrin, who would sanctify it and then all of the future feasts and festivals would be set! So,due to the ambiguity of exactly when Rosh would start, it was also called, "the day no man knows the day or hour"! So, some think Jesus was referring to a future Rosh. It is said that He has fulfilled the first 3 Feast Days (Passover, First Fruits & Pentecost) and will fill the remaining (Rosh, Yom Kippur & Feast of Tabernacles) with His return? And Rosh is the next Day in the succession! Also, of interest is the text of Matthew 24:27, "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." As soon as the new moon was sighted by the two witnesses, the Sanhedrin would send runners from the east to the west with signal lights to be lit on the high mountains to inform the people to begin counting the New Year from the month and the Feast of Trumpets. They were said to run "like lightning“! Is this phrase, “like lightning” telling us that the start of Rosh is associated with "the coming of the Son of man, Jesus, our Lord and Savior? I lean toward this belief, as do many others? But be sure that I am not saying Jesus will return on this Rosh! However, I think it is possible (of which I am not dogmatic) that He may return on some future Rosh! (Note: He posted this back on 9/21/2014) See the following Blood Red Moon Pie Chart, showing the coincidence of these events with Jewish Feast Days! The second Blood Red Moon will occur approximately 2 weeks after Rosh, this year, which is on September 24-25th. Regardless, of how soon we true believers are raptured, as JD Farag of Calvary Chapel, Hawaii would say, "we may be closer to the rapture than you think"? - Fair Use - So I’m curious to know people’s thoughts on this revealing info. Does it sound kosher? :feedback Yohanan, I thought you don't like men's interpretation, but now you are quoting bible commentary? Lol. I read those bible commentary from time to time. They are good in interpreting new testament, Paul's letter and link events to biblical history. But when it comes to old testament prophecy, they didn't do a very good job. It is because they lived hundred years before Israel rebirth as a nation in 1948. They didn't get to see Israel come back alive. Majority of them believe in Replacement Theology. With that in mind, God did not open their eyes and allowed them to see a clearer end time picture. We shouldn't follow their traditional view of Israel, especially events involved with end time.
Per John H.
09-21-2014, 05:25 PM
