I had an eye opening experience this weekend looking at 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8) And seeing how I missed the point that Paul was making and how that verse has been interpreted to mean "absent from the body = present with the Lord." I believe many pastors that I've listened to used that latter interpretation, but it appears that isn't what Paul was saying. If I look at his words "and willing to be absent from the body" appears to say that its Paul's desire and his willingness, but it doesn't say "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." What spurred that discovery is digging into Thessalonians 4:16-17. “For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Reading commentaries many say that the dead are already in Heaven and that the first to rise are those who return with Christ at the rapture and are reunited with their eternal bodies. In my finite mind - I am not able to assemble 2 Cor 5:8 and Thes 4:16-17 with the understanding that the dead are in Heaven. My brain hurts trying to figure this one out. Anyone have wisdom on this topic? Indeed a conundrum! Check out my latest thread. TR Does the claim, "...the dead in Christ shall rise first..." become part of your question, Todd? Does "rise" mean bodily from a grave, wherever that may be? (i.e., lots of bodies decay and even "graves" themselves over thousands of years disappear / disperse / explode / get washed away / ...) How about this? I suspect (not dogmatic) that souls / spirits do not necessarily possess locale -- like possessing some certain coordinates in a certain frame of reference. The phrase "with the Lord," then, may not necessarily specify locale. When saints' spirits are reunited with bodies (incorruptible) then they again possess locale. I dunno. Good question. :yes: :yes: :yes: Is "soul sleep" mixed into the examination? PS - you asked for wisdom and merely got a bunch of questions returned. Sorry. Seems to come down to understanding and interpretation! That's where the notion of doctrinal truth comes from. That said, God who is love and loves us will sort out the details! TR Great questions MWS and great point TR. As for the dead in Christ are first to rise - I'm ok on that front. I'll just rest in the fact that we're going to be with Jesus and how/when is up to the Father -- amen to God loves us and will sort it all out TR! Todd, how about another level to contemplate—- because God is outside of human time, our earthly tent may meet death but we have confidence in Him who raised Jesus from the death will also raise us up, but the soul /spirit of who you are is already present in eternity. Hello all from a new member enjoying lockdown in the UK. I am always wary of preachers who use verses withou context in their sermons but happily I am not a preacher so here goes. Luke 23:43 is a good starting point. The thief would be in paradise that very day. In Phil 1:23 Paul seems clear to me that if he is no longer in the flesh he is with Christ. Eph 2:6 says that we have been raised up together and made us sit down together inthe heavenlies. Rom 8:23 shows that we have the firstfruits of the Spirit and await adoption which is redemption of the body. I interpret Heb 6:18 to 20 as reinforcing that in a sense we have already entered within the veil. So we already are not only companions of Christ but already are partakers of the divine nature but await the redemption of our bodies. I could amplify much of what I have written but would just finish with a couple of points. It is because we are partakers of the divine nature that we can witness because only God can speak of man's condition (John 2:24 and 25). Finally the spirit and the soul are not the same as far as I understand it. The spirit of a person is that which gives them life on this earth (Ecc 12:7) and the soul is that part which needs to be saved. Heb 4:12 shows that the spirit is capable of being divided from the soul. I hope that this is helpful and not too long winded. John I feed we are already seated in heavenly places! That works for me. Welcome John C. glad your here and will enjoy your fellowship! TR Remembering our Lord announcing assuredly to the thief on the cross . . "TODAY you will be WITH ME in paradise " ~ ~ Luke 23:43. . . . . I trust by faith, that souls in Heaven (awaiting bodily glorified resurrection) are 'clothed' with the righteousness of Jesus NOW in His Presence ~ ~ Yes, John C. Thanks for piping up. Welcome. Helpful yes. Not so long, and some great "new" wind. So “absent from the body” applies to both soul and spirit? But according to Solomon, “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:7) I don’t know if I like the often circular discussions and lack of agreement on terms discussing what’s soul and what’s spirit; but regardless my likes lack value to others. I’ll often go straight to “Uncle!” (Is the word touche’ French for Uncle, by the way?) I don’t believe those who have gone on before are in limbo or soul sleep or something, awaiting their first ever encounter with their creator. It almost has to be in spirit that our soul encounters the Savior at our death. I have wondered, assuming all the people who claim that their entire life they saw flashed before them in an instant, (e.g., reported after an NDA), that maybe the Bema Seat judgment (1 Corinthians 3:10-15) could possibly occur right after a believer’s death and before the final decision and induction into that spirit / (soul?) realm. So if they got all that out of the way, not only would they better understand the non-corporeal nature of Paradise(?) during their stay, but not having to wait for their adjudication time with Jesus might leave only us rapturees to each experience the same kind of judgment instantly. A happy thought is that with those resurrectees already done, the wedding supper could be held sooner. Those who have already spent even hundreds of years with the Savior in “spirit” would like that too since none of them have had a single bite to eat since before they left here. But it’s a meaningless speculation too, of course. So does Paradise possess a locale of any kind, do you imagine? Did the thief have to wait three days until Jesus Resurrection while He went through the gloomy dungeons? Do souls or spirits have any dimensions — whatever “dimensions” may actually be…? Should our inability to actually comprehend “time” be worked into this mosaic? Does mosaic law apply here? Still kinda fun to think about, but not to argue about…
Is it too hard of a thing to think that the God of the universe who created matter with a spoken “let it be so” could do such a simple thing as raise a mortal body into immortality, a perishable seed to be imperishable? Just my two cents :wacko:
