Dan, I should have been clearer what I meant. I meant that please, do not quote that verse for justifying blind support for Israel and/or jewish matters. Nation of Israel is one of members of global community whether we like to admit it or not. We need to support them within reasonable and justifiable boundary according to the Bible and international laws, not blindly. If they do wrong, we should be able to criticize without any fear of retaliation. But if we do, then pretty much guaranteed to be called anti semite. Semites are descendants of Shem, consist of many people of that region, so called middle easterners mainly. But when you look at majority of so called jewish and Israelis are Caucasian looking, some even have blond hair, not like Amir Tsafarti, they called themselves as Ashkenazi jews. Ashkenazi is descendants of Japheth, by definition they are not Semites. There are some incoherent things going on. I suspect that there are some (probably many) things hidden from us (probably intentionally). Our God is not only Just God but also Almighty God. He does not need us, Christians, to help them unjustly and/or blindly since He is beyond Powerful. Have you heard that the USS Liberty incident? Probably not, because that has been systemically silenced and buried like many other things. That is a very good example of how we, the US is supporting Israel. That's a shame. In Matthew 5:43-45 we read, "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." Everything will be revealed. Vengeance is God's, and He has a very sharp sword and will employ it to reveal what each "Jew" and "Gentile" does. We can discern, yet we can harm others using generalizations. So Ready, I find your post offensive and unnecessary to this forum. joan Many villains today are Jewish, but many are gentile as well. It's a human problem. I'd say God has blessed the Jews greatly (while also disciplining them severely), and it's up to each individual to use their talents for good or evil. And it's no wonder the enemy seems to take great pleasure in twisting some of God's chosen people to serve him. How are we to view and treat the Jews? Romans 11 gives some crystal clear guidance. That isn't subservience -- it's God's word. We have decided to pull the video because it is not really appropriate for this forum. It is seen as devisive by a number of our members, some who have not posted publicly. I understand the point you are making but am not crazy about the video. Greg, Please, elaborate further on "Romans 11 gives some crystal clear guidance. That isn’t subservience — it’s God’s word." Because I don't see crystal clear guidance there. I'll try to explain what I mean by calling out what I think these are some of the key points in that chapter: verse 1: God has not cast away Israel verse 11: God is working to save them, and gave grace to us as part of the plan. verses 16-18: We were grafted in and are not to boast (or think that we've replaced them). verse 23: God can and will graft them back in again. verse 27: God will take away their sins. verse 28: There is currently conflict due to the gospel, but they are still beloved. verse 29: That is unconditional. verses 30-31: We were shown grace and should do so to them. verse 32: This is all part of God's plan. Takeaway for me (what I think is crystal clear): there may be conflict at times, but they are precious in God's sight and all unconditional promises stand, and the conditional ones will be fulfilled when they turn to Christ. Refer again to verses 16-18 -- we are not to boast or think for a second that we have replaced them, but rather, as verse 18 makes clear, be grateful that we are grafted in. I'd argue part of that also extends to not tearing them down. Remember how God judged Babylon and Assyria, both of whom He used as instruments of His discipline, but then they went too far. That many (but not all) of Israel are in a current state of unbelief is irrelevant. God sees the end from the beginning and we're called to respect that and not cast an ill light on the people he has chosen. Sure -- disagree when they do something wrong, but the way I think most of us are reading the recent posts seems to go beyond that. It brings to mind many of the arguments put forth by those promoting replacement theology, which is so starkly wrong on so many levels that it makes you wonder what else those promoting it got wrong. Few things in christian circles make me more angry than this dangerous and patently wrong man-made theology. On a personal level, this brought to mind something I hadn't thought about in years. Back when I was in early middle school years, my sister was into competitive figure skating. We spent a lot of time at the rink, and I would go through this path in the woods to a playground in the same complex. One day two boys asked me if I was Jewish and I said no and kept walking. Next thing I know, I had rocks landing near me, but I wasn't hit. I kept going and got away from it. Because two kids did something wrong was that cause for me to hate them? Of course not! Likewise, like I said before, I'm sure the enemy takes special glee in turning some Jews to evil (Soros, for example). I also think of how David responded to Saul. Saul repeatedly tried to kill him, but David still respected the king and would not lay a hand on the Lord's anointed. I think that was more out of love for God than Saul. The analogy breaks down after that because David replaced Saul, while the church does not replace Israel, but the point is still there. For me, Matthew 5:37 and especially Jude 1:9 also come into play here, but I can see where some wouldn't agree with that. And … did you notice this There was always a remnant of believers that were chosen, elected, selected down through the ages. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Those elected to eternal life obtained it and those not elected stay blinded 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. The olive branches were cut off for those Jews who didn’t believe and then the Gospel was given to the Gentile nations (to form the church) who believed and were grafted into the olive tree. But God is not finished with the Jews … 1/3 (who are chosen) will be grafted back in during the tribulation period and will enter the millennium kingdom. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. Even though the invitation is whosoever will … sinful man would have never chosen God because man loves darkness rather than light so God had to reach down and showed His mercy on us and He did the choosing. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. And we are grateful that God opened up the invitation of eternal life to the gentile nations (the church) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! —————— More Calvinism 101 Notice the order in this verse … it doesn’t say they believed and then received eternal life. Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Other translations say appointed to eternal life believed. This is why I believe in Calvinism far too many verses in the New Testament that talk about appointed, chosen, selected, ordained etc to eternal life. And no … I don’t believe in the Tulip points. But I am fond of the Daisy flower. :mdrmdr: (sorry inside joke). Pastor Chuck Smith founder of Calvary Chapels and Charles Haddon Spurgeon (called the prince of preachers) also taught Calvinism and used Scripture to present their case. God chose the Jews to be His people God chose Jacob over Esau God chose the Virgin Mary to house the body of Jesus God chose the 12 disciples (one, of course, was unsaved and of the devil but Jesus still chose Judas Iscariot to carry out the betrayal because someone had to do it. And what does it say about Judas? Matt 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.) And God chose us too to be His Church. And we are humbled and grateful … we still need to preach the Gospel to everyone and pray for them because we don’t know who is going to get saved. That’s God’s business. John 10 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. Per Got question What does it mean that God chose us before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)? In Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, he writes to help them understand who they are in Christ (Ephesians 1—3) and how they should walk as a result (Ephesians 4—6). In chapter 1, Paul identifies how God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit work together for the salvation of the believer, changing our identity from children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1–3) to sons adopted in Christ (Ephesians 1:5). He explains that believers are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1:3) and then shows how God accomplishes that blessing for those who have believed in Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9). First, Paul makes the remarkable statement that God chose us before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). God the Father “chose us in [Christ] before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight” (Ephesians 1:4). The Father also “in love . . . predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (Ephesians 1:4–5). While the ideas of election (choosing) and predestination can be confusing, they are unmistakably taught by Paul. Believers are chosen or caused to be chosen (as per the middle voice of the aorist verb) before the foundation of the world. In other words, this determination of God took place before the world had even been created. Notice how far Paul is going to assert that this new, blessed position of the believer is not of one’s own doing. It began with God’s choice, and it shows that God is the basis of the believer’s blessing, not one’s own merits. - Fair Use - I think people that are evil are just that.....individual evil persons....they don't need to be "Jewish" villains etc... just like bad apples in the Christian faith, and we have more than a few, don't need to be labeled Chrisitian villians......evil is evil and no race, color, creed or people have more of a claim to it than any other....imho Greg, Thanks for your reply. You seem to imply that I am in the replacement theology camp. But I am NOT. If I was in then I probably would be in Post Trib camp. Also, Seem to imply that I hate Jews. But I DO NOT. I see them, unsaved Jews, as really lost since I know how hard religious Jews to be saved. I still believe we should be able to criticize whomever doing wrong. We still have a freedom of speech at least on the book. All I am advocating is that they are not special as far as Gospel is concerned, so we do not need to treat them with unmerited favoritism and extraordinarily positive bias. Even after your long explanation, I still do not see any crystal clear guidance there. All I could see is between God and gentiles and between God and Jews. We can learn from that. You probably derive from that and consider it as a crystal clear guidance.
