soon now...feeling it with you tonite . Bless you and Tom !

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

sometimes I am standing in the FOREST and I cannot see the trees .....duh !

 Then  a  LIMB  falls  on  my head ! .  ...bb

Lord thank you for those limbs .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 Lord thank you for not quenching the light of any person , Your Mercy is so wonderful , I cannot fathom it . Amen In Him

Dear Truth : Thank you for your warnings for us to be holy before The Lord and stay away from sin .

I will certainly do as you have said . I appreciate your prayers and your edfication of The Body  of Christ . I know you want us all to be pleasing to Him . That is our desire as well , please believe this .

We love you very much and we will do as you say .

 God bless you tonite as you ABIDE in HIM .

stay with us here Believer .

 God bless you . Jesus loves you very much .

 in Christ and for Him , bonnie

Bonnie girl your words just ooze the love of God and they show that you have been in the presence of the almighty and I bet if I could see your face it would be glowing with his presence as well, and although you and I disagree sometimes too, I feel a special connection to you and I can't wait meet you soon,Love Linda

P.S  To TRUTH while I don't believe in most peoples versions of OSAS, I do know that Paul said that not even he had attained to perfection and would not until the resurrection and he warned against thinking we can attain.

I will certainly do as you have said . I appreciate your prayers and your edification to The Body  of Christ . I know you want us all to be pleasing to Him . That is our desire as well , please believe this .

We love you very much and we will do as you say .

 God bless you tonite as you ABIDE in HIM .

stay with us here Believer .

 God bless you . Jesus loves you very much .

 in Christ and for Him , bonnie

Then I say this to you .

 You seem to be a very sincere person with kindness and concern for others being saved and being good in their walk with Christ ,  which is to your credit . You probably do not have a mean bone in your body .

Your friends know you as the one that always runs to help and comfort . The kind of person I admire and want to always live next door to .

Easy to love and easy to be with ; I am sure all who know you would testify to this .

So therefore , I am begging you to recant this answer for it is seemingly right to you but it is blasphemy to me and you are breaking my heart .

I do not want you to err in such a serious way that you are cast away .

Jesus is the only perfect and  holy being as He is God . Our works , our holiness is as FILTHY RAGS before a Perfect God . He died on The Cross for all sin , you did not die for any man's sins , not even your own,  dear person .

 Please reconsider your answer . I will never stop praying that you recant this . Think of what you are doing , saying before GOD ALMIGHTY .

I love you . bonnie

(Mod edited - this website is not acceptable to be posted here.  If you wonder why, this website clearly states: Only Those Who LIVE HOLY Will See God.  Not true.  Only those saved by the shed blood of our Precious Savior will see God.)

God Bless you all!!!

But that is  not what is being presented here . It has been presented here before .

 Holiness and perfection while in the flesh is the claim .

I wait for this answer , thank you kindly for your comments . Let's see what comes .

Don't tell me people can be perfect and holy . That is too vague .

 Tell me this . Have you attained perfection and perfect holiness today  ?

 Are you as holy as Christ today ? Is your perfection on the  very same level as His at this very hour ?

 I feel with the claims you have  made before The Body of Christ : "people can be perfect and holy .", that you could in the very least answer that question put to you honestly .

 Actually a man should be asking this of you as women are not above  men in authority in The Body of Christ , but since no man has ask this of you , I ask it . I waited to see if any one man would . Noone did , so now I am .

 You of course do not have to answer this ; yours , a free volition ,

 I need to know your honest  thoughts on this straight out . Thank you  for considering this .

Bonnie , sincerely in Jesus

I believe our USA politcal system makes us think of tooo much in black and white. right or wrong. Do not get me wrong our God doesn't bend His ways or ever change... but going way back to the starting idea.....

Should Christians tolerate "lite" sinning? never
Should we realize people are at different points in there relationship with God? always
Should we always speak up against iur brothers abd sisters who claim to be in Christ? yes, but not before we take the stick from our eyes

if you are struggling with sin and are also a beleiver now IS NOT THE TIME TO BE COMPLACENT. Pray until you puke, spread seeds like there is no tomorrow, lovingly but not wimply call out your church and family so they may be ready for our bridegroom. If your church is corrupt tell them and peacefully go your way but never forget the indiviuals. If u haven't been to church in a long time maybe it woild be good for u to go.

Lets have our lamps oiled and not repent last minute but be ready for our glorious King. Lets warn people of the sin we see. but lets remember to LOVE them. I too am sick of the tickling messages that are plauging my church experience. so sick I realy don't go much anymore. But I know who goes and seek them out.

As I am writing this, I realize I should take my own advice. Keep looking up!

 What bothers me about the times we live in is something I have never heard before the last six years or so :

 It is unpeaceful , uneasy , not right . Makes me sick to my stomach when I hear it because I know in my heart it is not right :   People talking of having a degree of holiness that equals that of Christ .

NOWHERE in The Word does it say : There was a man who attained this . Even Paul says he is chief of sinners , Once saved By Christ's shed blood . A sinner saved by Grace . His gratitude is great in all of his writings . He gives Jesus all credit for salvation , never taking any credit for himself .

 He promotes GRACE !"  By Grace ye are saved , by faith , not of yourself lest any man should boast ."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

 and further always with this talk of self-holiness , very little glorification of Jesus comes with it .

 I have never pin-pointed it , exactly what it is about it that I so distrust , but I always say this,  for this is what The Word tells me without a doubt . Be holy as Your Father in Heaven is Holy , but never never say this before men or in your own heart : Never !     ........I have reached it ....i am holy !

GOD  FORBID that any one would ever say this or even think it ,in light of what Christ did to give us salvation.

And no Christian that I know would ever say that .

So I will agree with you all day long that we must strive to obey and live holy for The Love of Christ .

but do not say ever to another Christian , me as well , that you perform perfectly in His Kingdom for that I will not buy ever. To me that is an affront to Christ and it will not be abided .

 I am not saying you said that Child of God . I am just saying what Christians will not abide .

Any Christian that truly loves The Lord Jesus Our Savior , will not permit this saying of a human being in their presence  : "I am perfect , I am holy . " A true Christian will slam that everytime,  for it is the rightful defense of Our  PERFECT   LORD   who never sinned , not once in all His earthly life . He Alone is Worthy .

 I hope this helps you to understand my stance on His Behalf . No  strife intended . Only truth as I know it in my own heart before God  .

 Bless you tonite as you Abide in Him , bb

The bible clearly proves that we can live godly holy righteous lives here on earth through the power of the Holy Ghost which if you have it you will not live after the things of the word and be carnal because the spirit desires the things that fed it which is word and prayer and fasting. It causes you to seek after the things that are heavenly and have eternal reward. Jesus said even the devils believe and tremble so just believing isnt enough youve got to be born again and have the spirit to be a true Christian. I believe it was st john that said if you dont have the spirit then your a **** and not a son. True repentence is repenting and forsaking that sin that so easily besets us if you happen to stumble.

If the Lord puts it in your spirit to stand up and blow the trumpet on a call to living Holy then by all means do it but if it's "your self-righteous" tuba honking that is making all the noise.  Take a seat. (lol)

I've had to deliver messages to fellow Christians friends and families about certain unholy lifestyle choices because the Holy Spirit put it in my spirit to do so because these people had reprobate minds and were no longer yielding to the Holy Spirit but their own worldly agenda.  I've had Christian friends do me the same way.  If theJesus, Holy Spirit cant tell you to change some sin issues in your life and your fellow Christian friends and family cant then... NO ONE can.  

Everything that the title of this post states is in the Bible and that is in the last days people will fall away from attempting a holy and righteous lifestyle.  Im scratching my head wondering why it's even being "debated"? The whole chaper of  2 Timothy 3 sums it up and gives excellent advise.

2 Timothy 3:15

and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,  so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

@LovedByGod - Thank you so much for taking the time and going through the effort to locate, and post, those verses.  I very much appreciate it!

I generally refrain from conversations where a "Bible battle" (as I call them) is under way, specifically because I have seen so many times, verses being used in a particular context to prove nearly any side of any coin,(depending on the skill of the arguers involved, and the context within which the verses are presented - whether that context is truly accurate, or not).  I imagine that just about all of us have seen verses used out of context in order to "prove" a person's point - not saying that's what's occuring in this thread (in all honesty, this thread made me go and study some more to find out if what I believed to be accurate, might not be).  "Bible battles" are one of my pet peeves, and I try my best to avoid them. 

However, this particular discussion has taught me that if I want to participate in certain threads here at RITAN, that I do need to be willing to take the time to find, and post, relevant scripture.  Not for the purpose of "winning" an argument (which is why I purposely didn't come back to this thread and post any verses - because I felt that it would only come across as such if it came from me), but instead, to be used as a means to gain deeper understanding (ie: by posting verses that I am confused by, and then asking for input from others who may have already gained understanding of those specific verses).  As a result, I am going to put together a notebook with easy-to-find scriptures on various topics, and thanks to you, I am going to be able to start it off with all of these great verses that you took the time to post.  Thanks again!!!

The TWO are NOT the same .

How so?

The Word gives a perfect standard to live by because CHRIST is PERFECT therefore there is no other standard The Word can give other than perfection . If it told us to be less than perfect and holy it would not be The Word !

Then we are to strive with all our being to be perfect and holy !  At all times .

But this is what The Word does not want us to do .

It does not want us to say : I reached the goal of being perfect and holy like Christ <

What ????

 It requires a standard , but it does not want us to say we reached it .

 That is right !  Exactly .

Only Christ Jesus is perfect . Understand that The Word knows only Christ is perfect all the while requiring this of a people clothed in the flesh , who are filled with His Spirit .

Our standard set before us is HIS PERFECTION as HE is The LIVING WORD .

But we are never to say we reached this goal as only He has reached it .

We are to humbly admit we are always wanting in reaching this perfection He only possesses ,   for what else would human beings do ?

 SAY this ?  I have reached perfection ?  

 No . It is our realizing that only Christ is perfect that is our testimony that we love HIM and His Perfection , therefore we are His .

*******It is just as bad to say I have reached  the  perfection of Christ as it is to live in the world with worldly ways . One is self-righteousness at it's worst  , and the other is carelessness at it's worst .

We must be able to ascertain  the difference .

Our standard is always perfection as Christ is Perfect .

 But saying we have ever reached this perfection is wrong .

 HUMILITY  is required of believers , therefore we always admit we are wanting in coming up to His Perfection , Beloved of Christ .

We love Him first . He gets the Glory .....we are satisfied to glorify Him and not think well of ourselves .

Strive toward His Perfect Standard .....always . Never say you reached it .   Don't even say  " I came close ."   The Holy Ghost will not allow that either ......

A paradox ...? Yes but it must be .

 Anyway , The Holy Ghost will not allow mere men to say "I have reached the perfection of Christ ."

 The conviction would be ..."You are prideful !"

 *****When men talk about other men sinning and missing the mark , and that this is a terrible way to live ,  it makes others wonder this : Do they think they never miss the mark ?

We do not want to come under that conviction , ever , do we ?

of course not .......

So therefore we must say : "No one is perfect ." For it is the truth The Word teaches us .

Only Christ is perfect .

"For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat...So then, each of us will give an account to himself to God." Romans 14:9-12

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Romans 7:23

"For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God." 1 Corinthians 4:4

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!" Galatians 5:14

"For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For each one shall bear his own load." Galatians 6:4

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8

"fulfill my joy, by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others." Philippians 2:2

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:12

"Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:9  --

We all are chastened from time to time. Why would we need to be disciplined if we do nothing wrong once we have accepted Christ? We all make mistakes, daily. We are all brought along by God in His timing.  "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase." 2 Corinthians 3:6

Sin is sin. Whether you have a bad thought, tell a white lie or are living with someone as above. Christ died for all sin. If you believe in Christ, you are covered by His blood and forgiven, forever. God says He will remember your sins no more.

We need to love and encourage one another, Paul says especially during the end days. The rapture is so soon. Let's keep our focus and our eyes up.

In the future, I will make it a point to not disagree unless I have time to hunt down and post the specific scriptures that back up what I am saying.  We all know though, that scriptures can be used to prove almost any point...it depends on what portion of them are being used, and the context in which they are being presented, and subsequently perceived, as to what we end up taking from them. 

I liked Leroy's as well.  The world can spot hypocrisy from a huge distance. Unfortunately, it reminded me of most of our television evangelists, Franklin and Billy excepted.  We need more honest to God and less seeker sensitive preaching. 

@Ruth No, my sister please dont think that my statement implied that "you" were giving people mental issue pass, nor tugging at heart strings.  I identified with your post and your brother's testimony because of the testimony the Lord gave me w/compassion for mental issues. I bonded with the transparency in your testimony to show all sides of the picture. 

What "Truth" said is the truth about "some Christians"  not all  Christians that is why it is important to add a healthy balance and testimony as well as a resolution to "some Christians" that behave this way especially inside of a church assembly.  It's difficult to do as a individual outside of a church setting.  BUT as the church and the world are starting to cross breed to the extreme that they are unrecognizable today... In my opinion the call for HOLINESS and BOLD witness is extremely critical in these last days.  I think we are not only called to Watch and preach the gospel BUT even more we are called to walk in the POWER of GRACE to live HOLY as the LORD has called us to do through his son JESUS CHRIST's free gift of SALVATION. Stop being babies and Christ without POWER and GROW UP and walk into discipleship.  THAT's what  JESUS and those 12 men did for us and they died  as well so we could have this power and not just read it like a cell phone text message.

We cant blow our watchman trumpets and evangelize yet I'm living and exhibiting worldly sin in my daily life... Who is going to take us seriously?  When I was a Christian nose deep in sin I had just enough room to  roll my eyes at people like that and enough discernment to know they were full of sin themselves and could tell me absolutely nothing about repentence and Holy living. 

Jesus is kind and compassionate however there is the Lord and the Holy Spirit and they all have expectations of us to listen, obey and follow the WORD without excuse.  We are created in the image and likeness of the Lord who is Powerful, Holy and Righteous... That is our true spiritual dna when we are born again.  Stop infected yourself with past sins and use mercy, grace and faith to overcome and not regress.

In these last days the Lord urgently desires a call to Holy Living among mature Christians, we are confusing his babies. 

I feel Truth's message is a shake up' wake up message sometimes we all need that.  Remeber there are people who are reading (lurking) these post that need to see all sides.  Dont always take it personal.

Matthew 10:38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Luk 18:10  Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Jehovah-Tsidkenu...Jeremiah 23:6 "the Lord our righteousness"
Leroy

If it seemed I was trying to just "give everyone a pass", please understand that I wasn't.

I also wasn't simply trying to tug at peoples' heartstrings due to the fact that I have family members who suffer from serious mentall illness.

My point was...that judging others because they don't "appear" Christian *enough* to us, isn't accomplishing anything (and often times, is very possibly entirely inaccurate, anyway).

Quite frankly, the first post of this thread just flowed with the kind of attitude that keeps me from attending a brick-and-mortar church.  Why is this individual SO wrapped up in what everyone else is doing/not doing?  It doesn't sound like sincerity, in my opinion.

I don't do any of the things this person is criticizing (I've been married 20 years and no television gets watched in our home, etc....), so it's also not that I'm trying to defend myself in some way.

It's just that the, "I'm-better-than-others-at-being-a-Christian, Holier-than-thou" attititude, is NOT going to cause us to be the kind of people who make anyone else want to be a person who reaches for God.  It just gives them more reason to remain convinced that what they believe about Christians is true.  And I have SEEN IT HAPPEN more times than I can count.

"Truth" wants to admonish everyone for various reasons, but it seems to me that he/she is promoting an attitude of looking down on those who do not "appear" to live up to his/her idea of what a Christian should be, promoting the idea that we need to be our brother's keeper, promoting and even encouraging the kind of attitudes and behaviors that cause others to want to avoid Christians (and subsequently, avoid Jesus and the the word of God, at all costs)....and therefore, I think "Truth" needs a little admonishing him/herself.  It appears to me that "Truth" is taking those scriptures and taking from them a justification for looking down on others, thinking he/she is better than others....when my perception of those scriptures is saying something entirely different.  People I love very much, use the kind of attitude portrayed by many "Christians" to justify their hatred of Christianity.  Just my 2 cents.

ETA:  Don't get me wrong - I know there are people who are just wholly insincere.  They want what they want, and they want God to accept them no matter what they fail to change.  And there are likely people who attend churches who are tired of that kind of attitude being tolerated within their church community.  But instead of complaining about them, or dismissing them or looking down on them, let's try to be the kind of people who pray for them, that their hearts will be opened to sincerity.  Because it's between them and God.   

Lord increase our compassion for the metally ill ; convict us to be loving of all who suffer .

amen in Him

I have no shame in telling people my experience on this site because I am perfectly sane.   Honesty transparency is is what people need today.  Not I'm a Christian because it was easy all I do is read my Bible and go to church.  I've gone through a lot myself and my story really could be a lifetime movie.  I experienced a Paul on the Road to Damascus experience with blinding light, visions, persuction, hospitalization etc.  I knew I didnt belong inside a pysch ward.  I even asked the Lord "Why would you show me these things if this was going to happen?" No answer.  Just a knowing feeling to trust.  When I was admitted the Dr. interviewed me.  He was Indian.  When I told him about hearing from the Lord he labeled me a schizophriniac/Bi-polar.  Im serious, that's what he put on my file.  He spent less then 8 minutes with me a handed me a cup of pills.  The way "some" of the staff treated patients was very ineffectively.  Like product and tools for a paycheck.  Hurting people can feel when someone doesnt really care, that's why sometimes treatment doesnt work.

Im telling you all this to say the I understand what people with mental issues go through because I fellowshiped with them.  Did Bible study with them, talked to them with love, even enjoyed a silly moment singing, dancing and getting out nervous energy and most of all praying.  I remeber me and another Christian lady silently prayed on both sides of a man who was going through a panic attack.  The nurse couldnt believe how fast his blood pressure went done before she gave him meds.  The Lord showed me sooo many different kinds of spiritual issues inside that place affecting every single walk of life.  Housewives, teenagers, over-worked and seriously mentally challenged people with surpressed issues. You know what those people needed the most... PRAYER, FAITH, POWER to believe in JESUS CHRIST for who he really is and what he really can do.  That is why it is important to do ministry work inside of hospitals.  There is a need for Christian based pyschiatric hospitals especially.

Also we read about the healing power and faith that Jesus gave the saints but where are those saints today that really believe that prayers can heal without doubt.  If you doubt when you pray you are double-minded. When you pray for healing you must believe in Faith without doubt and let patience have her perfect work therefore all involved will be processed in the will of the Lord.  (Sometimes the Lord is working on the person who is praying for another person that their faith in him be increased.)

Having said all that (Im sorry if I got off again) Let's not give perfectly sane saints a pass for not having the mentally capacity to overcome sin when there are truly other people that are REALLY going through spiritual and mental warfare.

We can believe in the Lord for job promotions and bigger house but our  faith to restore our physical/spiritual temple is doubted?  That's not the power of the Jesus that I know and read about who healed the sick. 

Sincerly your sister in Jesus Christ,

K. Anntionette

Which brings me to Ruth's post.  I agree with you that God is aware of our strengths and weaknesses much better than our society is aware.  To whom much is given, much will be required. And some souls have such limited resources that the actions may not appear glorious at all times.  But God doesn't look at the actions so much as the heart.  He wants us to have a heart for Him, striving to be as like Him as possible. And He gives gifts as He pleases, each of us different.  He expects different things from each of us.  Remember how Christ said the widow put more in the offering than the rich man. To us it looked like a couple of pennys compared to bags of gold.  To God it looked glorious and shiny, reflecting from a heart focused on God.

My concern isn't so much for the limitations of people with damaged brains / brain chemistry as those people who are sociopaths.  There is 2-3x greater likelihood of being a sociopath at high levels of business because these people are very competitive without restraint.  If they are raised in a loving, emotionally supportive home they are still sociopaths, but they are sociopaths who have learned empathy and compassion from others and have learned that emulating this behavior has benefits to them.  Those who are raised in a violent environment don't do as well.  I have relatives who are sociopaths, but they are trying their best to improve.  We think.  It's really hard to tell what's real and what's faked because they just don't connect and they are the ultimate look out for number 1 kind of people. How can they respond to the Gospel of Jesus Christ?  How will it change them?  I know God is able, but sometimes I wonder if this is nephilim DNA expressing itself.  If anyone has experience with a born again sociopath, I would be very interested in hearing it.

There are a LOT of people in this world, who are like my Aunt and my brother, although maybe not even to such a severe degree, who cannot be who people might expect them to be.  I am humbled and grateful to be aware of that every day of my life, because it helps me to have deep compassion for many people that I think a lot of people just look down on, or criticize, not really considering that we are all at different levels of capability.  We can't all achieve the same degree of overcoming the world.  Everyone is SO very different.  

Yet, it is not my brother's fault that he was born with a malfunctioning brain...physiological problems that, in 46 years of trying, medicine has not been able to correct.  My mother has been praying for his healing and restoration every single day of his 46 years of life, yet he remains who he is, incapable of functioning on the same level that I can.  She cries out to God with every fiber of her being, and would gladly lay down her own life this minute if it would help him to be the kind of person who could live a healthy life.  For reasons unknown to us, God's will appears to be that my brother will remain exactly who he is - a person that is not obviously mentally impaired - he is somebody most people would just think wasn't trying hard enough...but he is too mentally impaired to overcome this world.  His brain does not function in a way that will ever allow him to be the kind of Christian who overcomes.  He has the sincerity in his heart - he wants desperately to be somewhere near normal, to be the kind of man he believes he should be.  But his brain simply does not work in a way that allows him to function like a healthy-brained person can.  There are SOOO many people in this world like him!  And many of them function to a degree that leaves others, who only see what's on the surface, with the impression that they are capaple of much more than they are.  My brother is not suffering from mental retardation...he finished school, served in the army, has held jobs that require a high level of skill...what he suffers from is serious, clinical, mental dysfunction.  And there are millions of people like him.  It prevents them from being able to understand many critical and complex aspects of a spiritual life that perhaps you or I can.

They can understand enough to know not to kill, or steal, or lie, or cheat.  But when it comes to trying to overcome complex aspects of their lives, they don't have the mental capability to endure and persevere until they see the fruits of their labor. They may be able to read the words, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me", but they don't have the mental function to truly grasp the enormity of those words, or the power in them.     

I dare to say this, because I feel moved to...perhaps that lady at that church who still lives with her boyfriend is somebody who cannot overcome and function in the same way that it would seem obvious to others that she should.  Maybe she could, and simply chooses not to, but maybe not. Maybe she really doesn't "get it".  For all any of us know, that lady could have spent her entire childhood being sexually abused and treated as though she were nothing...and now, as an adult, still believes she is worth nothing, and still equates a dysfunctional sexual relationship with love.  You don't know!  Everyone comes with a story, everyone is who they are because of a million different reasons and personal experiences and the residual and constant self dialogue they are left with as a result.   I suppose one might have to have experienced a deeply emotional relationship with someone like that (like I have had with my aunt and brother my entire life - I grew up learning to interact with people who function on the level that they do) to fully understand.

Before we assume, or criticize, or judge....we need to remember that we're all in a different place.  We can't all be the same.  We can't all overcome to the same degree as each and every other person who has reached out to Jesus and accepted His gift of salvation.  And sometimes, people we *think* should be living their lives far differently than they appear to be, are really functioning at the highest level they are capable of functioning.  It doesn't mean they love Jesus less than anybody else, and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean that they are less important to Jesus than you or I.  It means that their brains work less healthily than ours do. 

And worst of all, they are the people who satan constantly attacks with unrelenting and merciless fervor.  They need our prayers, not our condemnation!  Those of us who satan knows he cannot get far with, he doesn't bother with us.  He doesn't bother with me...he knows that I am rooted.  I can feel that he does not even TRY to get at me (and I say it often, and loudly, so I *know* that he knows that I know, lol).  Of course not.  He is a coward.  He goes after those who are weaker, who are less capable of overcoming, less capable of fighting him off!  Those of us who are stronger, we need to get on our knees and thank our Father in heaven that we ARE stronger, and then we need to get up off our rear ends and intercede with the power of Jesus Christ, and the strength that we have been SO blessed to possess, on BEHALF of the kind of people who are not as strong as we are!

I do not delete people on my Facebook who talk openly about not believing in God.  I have people I deeply love on my Facebook who are atheists, and wiccans.  I do NOT criticize them, or insult them, or berate them.  I feel that God is always telling me to just BE A LIGHT.  Be kind, love them through all things, be someone they DO NOT FEEL JUDGED BY.  Because if my behavior and attitude turn them away...then I've lost ALL hope of ever being anyone whose example they consider when looking for truth.  And the day is coming, not too far off, when they are going to NEED that truth.  And I want them to remember my love and my kindness and my attempts at educating them with scripture.  I don't want them to remember me in a way that makes them want to run as far away as they can from everything I ever did and said to them.

I do not pretend that sin does not exist with those particular people...like I said, I try, almost daily, to educate them with scripture through my Facebook posts.  But I also know that each of those individuals (the ones who are atheists and wiccans), carry deep, deep pain in their hearts and souls from experiences they have had to endure throughout their lives, and I am just meeting them where they are.    

Let's not just "dismiss" people who don't live up to the expectations we have for them as "Christians"..  Let's love them, and intercede in prayer for them!  If a person appears to be entirely capable, but simply insincere (as opposed to people who simply don't have a high degree of mental function), then let's pray for their hearts and eyes to be opened to their need to reach inside themselves for that sincerity.  Because without that sincerity, they are going to be lost!  Let's use the strength we've been blessed enough to have the kind of mental capability to grasp hold of, and UTILIZE it to try to help those who are weaker.  We are soldiers of Christ, are we not?!!!  They don't call it a spiritual battle for nothing.

Arent the Wood, Hay, and Stubble "Works"  not the way we live?

It's funny we can join gyms and try all kinds of new diets but when it comes to our spirit we sometimes do very little to drop off sin burdens the way we drop flesh lbs. 

If more people trained their inner man up the way they do the outter man by reading the daily word of the Lord Jesus Christ with the same passion they pursue the knowledge to acquire worldly wealth and assets they would be more confirmed to Jesus Christ and the purpose the Lord has for his children.  I can not stress enough how important it is to...

Romans 12:2 Do not change yourselves to be like the people of this world, but be changed within by a new way of thinking.  Then you will be able to decide what God wants from you; you will know what is good and pleasing to him and what is perfect.

Futhermore a lot of people do not have a true identity of Jesus Christ I fear that they treat him like someone you can snap your fingers and he pops inside your life like the insurance agent commercial.  Like he's only there when you need something or get in trouble or like the Holy Spirit is chillin on a cloud like a genie with his hands over his eyes and ears while your sloppy drunk in the club,cheating on your spouse etc., cruising x-rated sites.  We will be accountable for everything we say and do because it is known by the Holy Spirit that dwells within us.  I am convinced that when you are filled with loads of un-repented sin you quench and grieve the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee Fornification.  Every sin that a man doeth is without the body: but he that committeth fornication sinneth against  his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own.

Think about the Holy Spirit that is real and dwells inside of a true believer... How long could the Holy Spirit stay inside of a body that is a slave to flesh and never yields to repentance. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman and is not going to fight  against your free will. He will gently convict. Somehow after a while if ignored I feel like He will step aside. I dont know maybe come back later?  *shrug* I hope I havent offended anyone but these are things that bother me because I see the above mention conversation about sex is rarely addressed and that is the big sin issue that a lot of people are struggling to overcome.   

Im like... I have friends that are Christians that dont believe in marriage but believe in the benefits that are ordained by the Lord for a husband and wife. BUT yet want to be a BRIDE OF CHRIST 

I cant go on because I could but let me stop before I get a headache.

However I use to think similiar silly notions, so I can empathize with them in some ways.   Oooh enough from me.  Again sorry if Im venting and sounding like a Debbie Downer.

(Ummmm.... Hello Im so ready

11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.  < So are we talking about members of a assembly/Church. Because as the title of this post states it's kind of getting hard to distinguish. )

 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

Well... arent we Christians the Body of the church even outside of building structure?  In no way am I perfect but one thing I do as a follower who loves the Lord Jesus Christ is #1 Doing the action work of Love John 14:15 and John 14:23-24 and #2 Utilize the Lord's mercy, grace, and faith to accomplish the Lord's will for my life Philippians 3:12-14

I've been pondering over this post for a while today and it's something that grieves me into pray and contemplation . Although it is said that we can never lose our salvation it sure looks like a lot of my Christian brothers and sister have exchanged the glory of Jesus Christ for the glory of the world and have lost the inner and  outter identity of  Jesus Christ for a un-Christ like worldly identity. 

Im glad the Holy Spirit can identify whose who because I surely cant and today I dont think anyone can.

I was agreeing with Becka that worldly Christians will be disciplined by God for their decisions / actions which would burn away like wood, hay and stubble. In fact, since none of us are perfect, I assume that among the jewels, gold and silver revealed by the fire of God's judgement there will always be some wood, hay and stubble.  For the good things we did that God did not tell us to do, as well as for the sins and error we committed either willfully or through ignorance. I am sorry you took it personally since it certainly wasn't aimed at anyone, but was meant as a support to Becka's post.

I am curious, however, if we avoid all contact with the carnal people, how are they going to be exposed to our light?  As I recall Christ was a friend of sinners.  He just didn't sin with them.

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Welcome to RitaN. .  We're so glad you've joined in our fellowship as we watch and wait for our Lord's soon coming!

Love and blessings,

VC

Just keep in mind that as watchman we are supposed to be sounding the alarm.  Not just watch. More like watch dogs and less like watch cats, sorry Donna.

don't cast your pearls to swine=the majority of the world doesn't want to hear it!

Simple as that.

We can't save the world/trib saints are washed in white...they got to go thru it..and theres nothing a watchman can do

I was disciplined by God early this year and cleaned up my act right quick.

However, those "Christians" who never hear and/or feel the swift conviction of the Holy Spirit, whether it takes days/weeks/months/years, are probably not true Christians, and will most likely be yelling, "Lord, Lord!" at their Judgment.

~~Becka

We strive for it, and we fail because we're still sinful creatures.  But since we can lean on the Lord, I believe we have an easier time resisting temptation.  I've resisted a certain temptation for almost 6 months now.  And it used to come at me hard and furious.  Now that I've stood against it (by calling out to Christ when I was weak), it's no longer a burning desire, but a smoldering ember.  Now, if I ever drop into that sin again, I will allow the enemy a foothold in my life.

So what does that do?  It could ruin your witness, for one.  Secondly, once the devil's got your ear, he turns you into a "sidelines" Christian.  You are no longer wrapped in the Savior's arms, you are no longer seeking Him because of your guilt.  You're no longer a prayer warrior or cultivating your love-relationship with Him.  Or maybe you fall into old habits.  We're so good at that.

Staying "holy" is very hard, and it's a daily struggle.  But the purpose is to make us like Christ, not to add to our salvation.  That would be by our works, and we know we're covered ONLY by the Blood.  The purpose is to conform us into His image, so that when people look at us, they see Him.  They say, "Oh, wow!  That's what I want!"

I had one guy on my FB page commend me for being one of the most respectful, well-minded, level-headed Christians he'd ever met and I told him straight up -- "You're seeing Christ through me."  He didn't refute it, either, because he says it's natural to take on traits of the teacher you follow.  :)  I'm still praying for the guy - he doesn't believe.

But the point is, when we keep ourselves separated from the world, it brings us closer to God, it makes our witness easier, people can see Christ through us, and we live more fulfilling lives.  We're also storing up treasures in Heaven.

But it's not a salvation issue. 

~~Becka

My first witness for my salvation was when I ripped the skin off the back of my hand and exclaimed "Golly that hurt".  I've worked in construction, in steel mills and in the maritime union (tug boat crew) and I don't think I'd  ever used that phrase before.  I really was a new creation in Christ!

Oh, and Joyfullheart, I don't unfriend the ignorant.  They are the very people in my family for whom I've been praying. I just block the offensive messages.  But I let rip with prompts to salvation, with prophecy fullfillments, with scriptures, etc.  I won't subject myself to some of their comments, but I want them to be subjected to my comments.  Of course, they might be blocking me as well.  But every once in a while I get a follow-up comment from those I pray for which makes it all worthwhile.  So far no unfriends that I know of.

Goinggoinggone, we do have different opinions on a non-intoxicating quantity of wine on occasion I suspect, but not on the appropriateness of appointing ministers who are purposefully choosing to live in fornication rather than marriage. Bad ambassadors. Find a better church.  The pastor in the church I was saved in wasn't interested in getting around to baptising me any time soon since it was just a symbol and not all that important.  I found a new church that actually believed in baptism.  Not that it's absolutely necessary (as in thief on the cross), but God impressed on me as a new believer that I needed to do it, the Bible indicates it should be done, and a minister who cared about neither of these was not the minister for me.

The Bible is clear, it brings life to those that love the Lord and desire to follow after him but to those who are half-hearted, it brings a sense of condemnation.

I have just left my church.  12 months ago I was concerned about a woman who had accepted Jesus 1 year before, she was still living with her boyfriend and she was having severe heart problems.  I spoke to the Pastor about my concern and her continual living situation, the Pastor said "God sees them as married".  I couldnt help myself and very sternly said "No he doesnt".  I saw the pastors spirit shake at my words and at the time believed that his spirit heard.

Now another year on, she is still living with this man and is now continually asked to minister in the church to others, praying for them and in a ministerial role in one of the groups.  I spoke to the Pastor again and he once again said "God sees them as married".

Now where did this delusion that the Pastor has come from?  It started small and grew.  A few years ago I saw that he had more concern for "The Glory of God" than for the individual, it all had to be done the pastors way because that was for the Glory of God or not done at all. 

The Bible is clear "Dont let the devil have a foothold"  A slightly open door is easier to open than a slammed shut one.