I have always been taught that in order for the rapture to occur, the fulness of the Gentiles must be reached.  In other words, once the last person whom the Lord knows will accept Him during the church age does so, the rapture will occur.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:25

It would seem that this verse is saying that once the rapture occurs, the Lord will return His focus to the Jewish people.  Not only that, but it sounds like once the rapture event takes place, many of their eyes will be opened, because of it.  Notice how Paul also uses the word "mystery", which is used in reference to the church age, and the rapture.

I recently came across these verses...

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Luke 21:20-24

These verses in Luke are obviously refering to the abomination of desolation, at which time the Jewish people will know to flee to safety.  This is the midpoint of the tribulation.  This also sounds like it may be speaking of the Gog/Magog invasion, when it says Jerusalem is compassed with armies.  Although it does say when they see this taking place, the abomination will be soon after, so perhaps Paul is giving an advanced warning.

My question is:  Is there a difference between the terms "fulness of the Gentiles", and "times of the Gentiles"?  Or are these two verses linked together somehow, and I am incorrect in attributing Romans 11:25 to the rapture? 

I'd like to say that fulness of the Gentiles means fulness of the body of believers (church age), and times of the Gentiles is refering to the Gentile people who remain (unbelievers), but I'd like thoughts on this...  Thanks!

I believe that many have misinterpreted the "fullness" of the Gentiles to be that of the rapture.  Keep in mind that many Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation too, so that interpretation doesn't make sense to me.

The following is from my pastor's commentary.  Context is key. 

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The fullness of what? (Romans 11:25-26)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

In these two verses we see some prophecy unfolding from Paul. He has already told us about Israel's blindness with regard to the Gospel message. Now he addresses the length of this rejection on their part: "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." The Greek word for Gentiles here is "ethnos." It is a frequent reference to non-Jewish people in the New Testament. Verse 26 goes on to further identify what happens when this "fulness" has taken place - "...all Israel shall be saved..." Paul makes reference to some Old Testament passages to validate his point - Isaiah 59:20-21 (see notes); Isaiah 27:9 (see notes) - verses that project Israel's return to God as a national entity when the Messiah will reign. That makes identification of the "fulness of the Gentiles" easy; it's after Revelation 19:11-21 (see notes), the end of the Battle of Armageddon. It's at that point that the millennial reign begins with only saved people inhabiting the earth (the rest will have been wiped out in the battle), and the Messiah will be reigning over Israel and the world. This is a fulfillment of the Davidic covenant - out with Gentile domination; in with Jewish Messiah domination i.e. "the fulness of the Gentiles." (Click here to see the specifics of this promise we know as the Davidic Covenant.)

From the beginning of the millennium forward, all Israel will enjoy salvation under the terms of the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34 (see notes). The rebellion that takes place at the end of the millennium, found in Revelation 20:1-10 (see notes), consists only of Gentile nations; no Jews are specified there.

http://www.bibletrack.org/cgi-bin/bible.pl?incr=0&mo=8&dy=21

My understanding is that the term translated as fulness of the Gentiles is an idiomatic phrase referring to the full complement of a ship coming aboard. If it is indeed an idiomatic phrase, then a direct translation which ignores the idiom will also miss the point. 

I also think that just because the time of the hardening of the heart and blinding of the eyes is brought to an end (at the time of the rapture) does not mean that all Israel will immediately and simultaneously acknowledge Yeshua as Ha'Maschiach. It means they will consider it and make a choice. In reality, they will be back to the same state they were in at His last visitation to them. Some will prefer their religion to their God. Some will worship the One they have sought all their lives. And, bit by bit, some will realize that their religion is empty and that they need to reconsider all they have built their lives on. Which process the 70th week is designed to guide.

I do see the fulness of the Gentiles being when the last of the Bride goes up. In reverse logic, once the Bride goes up it certainly means the last portion of the Bride has been chosen because the wedding party has already left the building.

I see the "times of the Gentiles" in this context as referring to the time that Jerusalem is given over to the nations to trample underfoot and control as contrasted to the millennial Kingdom where it will belong to Jerusalem and it's resident King.

The context of Romans 11 is with regard to Israel's blindness. When is Israel's blindness lifted?   It is not at the rapture.  They don't fully recognized Jesus as Messiah as a nation until the 2nd Coming.  First they recognize the need for God after the "Great Middle East War", next they rely on the "covenant with death" (Ezekiel 28) for protection, rather than God's protection,  in the first half of the Tribulation they institute Temple sacrifice, rather than rely on the finished work of Christ, and lastly two thirds of them die in the Tribulation (Zechariah 13), before the remaining one third, which at that point will be "all Israel", will be saved when "the Deliverer will come out of Zion" and He will "take away their sins".  We see Israel's recognition nationally in in Zechariah 12, when Jesus is returning.  Again note the context.  This is the 2nd Coming:

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

TxThom Said in part:

Amy, the way you phrase it seems to imply that Israel will be redeemed all at once when He reappears in the sky, but there will be 144,000 + 2 witnesses proclaiming Christ from the beginning of the 70th week to my understanding. 

The 144,000 don't come until the sixth seal and the two witnesses probably don't come on the seen much before that. Now for everyone who says the rapture occurs before seals are opened then tell me how long do you think it would be before these Jews for Jesus come on the scene?

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Posted by TX Thom

Amy, the way you phrase it seems to imply that Israel will be redeemed all at once when He reappears in the sky, but there will be 144,000 + 2 witnesses proclaiming Christ from the beginning of the 70th week to my understanding.

......

I do agree that when He appears the remaining 1/3 will corporately recognize Him as Messiah, but I think most of them will be waiting for Him to come as Messiah long before that day. I also think that as they come to Christ  He will take their sins from them, much as He has done for us. Although I can see a more permanent fulfillment of the verse at the second coming when He will remain physically in Jerusalem.

I'm sorry I didn't clarify that I believe the context of Romans 11 is speaking of Israel's corporate acceptance of Jesus as Messiah.  Note the wording:

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved

I believe the removing of the blindness of the Jews will be a process that will not be complete until right before Jesus returns.

The corporate rejection of Israel resulted in the postponement of the Kingdom.  The corporate acceptance as Jesus as Messiah will result in the commencement of the Kingdom.

Remember the fifth seal when the saints ask Jesus if the time is come for justice or revenge?

And Jesus told them to wait for a little while,until the number matyred like them be complete.

Even Jesus pointed the completion or fulfillment toward the end of the tribulation.

Hey here's a new twist- what if the last Gentile has already come in but God is tarrying so they can earn a reward or two - maybe a watcher's crown looking towards His coming? - still looking at Rosh Hashanna ! :)

Remnant Navi wrote:

Hey here's a new twist- what if the last Gentile has already come in but God is tarrying so they can earn a reward or two - maybe a watcher's crown looking towards His coming? - still looking at Rosh Hashanna ! :)

That would be very sweet of Him, and fitting with His character. Who knows, but I like the idea! :-)

Remember that the Fullness of the Gentiles is a Mystery given only to Paul.

The Church is a Mystery given to Paul.

The Rapture is a Mystery given to Paul.

All of these Mysteries were given to Paul, and I assume that is what the first part of Galations is talking about. He was given these Mysteries by Christ Himself. How, I do not know.

This has always puzzled me. In person, in visions, in dreams?

My vote is in person.

To me the Fullness means the last person saved to replace the number of fallen angels.

And there are a bunch of them - I would say billions.

As for the times of the Gentiles, that started a while back with Nebs Image.

He saw the whole picture after Daniel interpreted his dream.

Babylon, Medes/Persions, Greeks, Romans.

Then the ten toes after the Romans.

Do not forget that they mingle their seed with the seed of men, but it does not cleve.

Hybrids. Half human - Half Demon. The mark of the beast. A DNA change. Once the mark is taken there is no way for one to be saved. Makes sense to me. 

(Daniel 2:43 - That is some creepy stuff.)

It has and is coming true.

"Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven"

How much longer, I have no clue - but it seems short,

Tracy