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I hear many people proclaiming that we are watching the build up to the Gog and Magog war, but when I look in the Revelation I only find Gog and Magog mentioned in Rev 21 at the end of the Millennium...
I'm pretty sure there is going to be a middle east war in the near future, and we'll see the destruction of Damascus, but is it the Gog and Magog war that many are referencing?
Humble Horse, welcome to RITAN! I saw your video where you sang to the left behind and thought it was great. Glad you have joined us all here!
And now to your question. I believe the gathering of Gog and Magog at the end of the millenium is just to show the stubborness of mankind to accept a Messiah even though He is right in front of them. The power of G&M is from satan and he gathers his followers and power at the end of the Millenium from the same place he had before. But this is not the G&M war of Ezekiel, because no battle is fought. Fire comes down and devours them and then satan is thrown into hell. In the Ezekiel G&M war, there is a battle fought with many dead and the countries of the world respond to it. There is a clean up period of 7 years after this war, whereas after satan is destroyed at the end of the millenium, a new heaven and earth is created. A clean up of 7 years would be uneccessary.
It is so difficult to know when Ezekiel's G&M war happens because we were not given that bit of info. We have to guess and just take it by faith that it will happen exactly how God intended for the sole purpose of bringing Israel back to Him. If I had to guess, I think it is at the very beginning of the 7 year tribulation and introduces the rider on the red horse. Teachers like JR Church has guessed that when sudden destruction comes at this war, that the rapture happens at the same time, because there are so many examples in the Bible of God saving His followers out of His judgment at the very last second.
We shall see, but I think we are very close to seeing these prophecies fulfilled. God bless you, brother.
So, you're saying the outcome of the two Gog and Magog wars is different, so it cannot be the same event, I'd better go back to my Bible and read a bit more...!
Just as an aside, I see you mention the 7 year tribulation?? Doesn't the Bible say it is 3 1/2yrs, 42 months, 1260 days??
The Antichrist 'confirms a covenant with many' for 7 years, but the tribulation is only 3 1/2 years...
Isaiah 17 happens first....I believe Psalm 83...comes second, which in return, it puts a hook in the jaw of the north and then comes Ezekiel 38=russia and the great tribulation
3+8=11
8+3=11
11:11=destruction
Isaiah 17 "Damascus being leveled" and imo is the first one that will bring the AC to the table...makes the peace deal.
Insert Psalm 83 here, could be the hook for Russia
The third one, is the one that gets really nasty and it looks like full blown WW3=world being destroyed by fire.
War will continue till the end.
Just as an aside, I see you mention the 7 year tribulation?? Doesn't the Bible say it is 3 1/2yrs, 42 months, 1260 days??
The Antichrist 'confirms a covenant with many' for 7 years, but the tribulation is only 3 1/2 years...
The tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel, 7 years long, beginning with the confirming of the covenant for a 7 year time period. Now, half way through, the AC comes to full power and the Great Tribulation begins for the last 3 1/2 years. Here at RITAN we believe in a pre-trib rapture, where the church will be taken before the 7 years of judgement starts. We believe that could happen any time now.
I definitely believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I would hold the view that the Tribulation is 3 1/2 years, and I also believe in a 7 year agreement, with the Tribulation being the last half of the 7 year agreement, after the AOD is set up.
I don't think it really matters what we choose to call the first 3 1/2 years, we both agree it's there just choose to call it different names..
PEACE XX
I try to remember to use the phrase Daniel's 70th week for the seven year period to be technically correct, but almost everyone in the world seems agreed on calling the whole 7 years "the tribulation". I vacillate between picky and clear. It's good to have another picky person participating humblehorse.
Hi Humble Horse,
I believe the idea that the rapture could occur, without warning, aka "imminence", is responsible for many Christians discounting Church Age fulfillments of prophecy.
The restoration of Israel in 1948 was indeed a Church Age fulfillment of prophecy, as is the resurrection of the Hebrew language. This should prove to us that prophecy can indeed be fulfilled during the present age.
I believe the next thing on the prophetic agenda is the Psalm 83 war, as someone else mentioned. I believe, however, that this war will be another Church Age event, as will the Gog and Magog war a few years later.
When Jesus spoke of "wars and rumours of wars", I think He was speaking of these two major wars, as well as the preliminary skirmishes we are seeing today. He didn't mean "war as usual". Jesus always referred us back to the Scriptures, and this statement of His is no exception.
A careful study of the Psalm 83 war reveals that the nations involved will be limited to Israel's neighboring Arabs including Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the Palestinians, and Egypt. Yemen, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, and the UAE may also be involved.
Psalm 83 is an imprecatory (sp?)prayer, and doesn't give us the result of that war. I think passages like Isaiah 17:1, Isaiah 19, and Zechariah 11:1-2 are answers to that prayer, and therefore belong with the same passage.
The nations of the Ezekiel 38-39 account are not listed in Psalm 83, so we can expect to see some sort of rift between them. The Shiite and the Sunni Muslims have a natural divide that will likely be partially responsible for this division.
Actually I believe we are seeing this rift developing today in Syria, where Russia and Iran are supporting Assad, and the Arabs are supporting the rebels.
This rift will likely be compounded if any of these Arab states cooperate with Israel, in their attack on the Iranian nuclear facilities. Since Saudi Arabia has already offered Israel the use of their airspace for such an attack, I would not be surprised if something like this transpires.
As for the rapture, I expect it somewhere around the end of the Gog/Magog war. I can't set a day, nor an hour, but I believe the evidence is that this war will set up the world for the Antichrist.
A careful reading of 2 Thes. 2 shows two revealings of the Antichrist. I believe the first one (v3) is for the Church, and the second one (v8) is for those left behind, after the rapture. I think the Church will be the first to understand who the Antichrist is, and will endeavor to warn the world. No one will listen, however, and then the rapture will occur. After this he will be revealed to the world in general, and some will begin to understand.
"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Amos 3:7
Who is in the place of the prophets today? Isn't it the born-again Church of Jesus Christ? If so, then I expect Him to reveal to us the Antichrist, while he is still in a relatively harmless position, and we will be whisked away before he can do any real harm.
And, this will all happen before the 7 year Tribulation begins.
When is Gog/Magog war?
Very likely in this summer.
According to Joel 2,after our Lord fend off the northern army,he shall bless his people by sending the former rain,and the latter rain in the first month.
Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
It can be interpreted as a blessing from Christ,or if we go by the literal meaning of the verse,the rainy season in Israel always begins in November,up until May next year.
The driest season is Summer.
It shall place the Gog/Magog invasion in Summer.
One more thought.
Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
Does it mean that after the Gog/Magog invasion,Israel territory shall be expanded?
We shall see.
But according to Zephaniah 2:9,and Jeremiah 49:1-2,Israel shall possess the land of Jordan after the judgment comes upon Jordan.
Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore as I live, saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them.
Jeremiah 49:1 Concerning the Ammonites, thus saith the LORD; Hath Israel no sons? hath he no heir? why then doth their king inherit Gad, and his people dwell in his cities?
2Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will cause an alarm of war to be heard in Rabbah of the Ammonites; and it shall be a desolate heap, and her daughters shall be burned with fire: then shall Israel be heir unto them that were his heirs, saith the LORD.
Maybe my study will help:
"Fair Use for Education and discussion purposes"
Ezekiel, chapters 38 and 39, reveals a fascinating and detailed prophecy about a future war campaign against Israel. This war is known as the "Gog and Magog War", because the people of Magog and their leader Gog will lead the attack. Scripture clearly teaches that this particular war will be a turning point for Israel in their relationship with God.
In the first part of this study we will go through the scriptures verse by verse. In the latter part of this study, I attempt to make sense of the placement of this war, in relation to other prophetic events by answering a series of questions with Scripture.
Click here for the study:
http://www.trackingbibleprophecy.com/gog_magog.php
Humblehorse, glad to have you join our RITAN family! I absolutely love your song "Outlaw".
Like WW said, the G&M wars in Ezekiel and Revelation are two seperate wars, and I agree with her assessment.
Here's how I think it will go, but this is purely my opinion and I could be way off the mark.
I think that right now we're staring down the barrel of the fulfillment of Isaiah 17 war and the destruction of Damascus. I think the Church will see this war.
I believe the Gog Magog war of Ezekiel 38 will take place at the same time as the Rapture or just after while Israel is living in relative peace and safety because of what it says in Ezekiel 38. I also think that correlates to the scripture in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3.
I believe the Psalm 83 war will come after the Rapture of the Church because I believe the sheltered ones being spoken of are the raptured saints.
They have taken crafty counsel against Your people,
And consulted together against Your sheltered ones.
Psalm 83:3
About the trib, here's my belief for what it's worth. I believe Daniel's 70th week of 7 years is all the tribulation. I believe the first 3 1/2 years is the Wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:16 shows it and it encompasses all the seals Jesus opens), and I believe the last 3 1/2 years is the Wrath of God (Revelation 15:1).
I do think it's important to state that the tribulation is 7 years long because if it isn't then the rapture would take place around the time that satan indwells the antichrist which would go along with pre-wrath/mid trib POV. In order for it to be a pre-trib view, then it must take into account the entire seven years of the tribulation. And most importantly because we're not appointed to wrath. (Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9)
Once again, we're glad to have you here with us while we watch and wait for our King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus!
God Bless and Love,
FW
That's just how I think it will line up, FW: Is. 17, Ezekiel 38 and then Psalm 83.
I amin total agreement with FW
2nd coming,
I am in total agreement with you about Jordan's Judgment. My difference of opinion is the timing of that event. If Psalm 83 occurs before Armageddon, then the result can't be the devastation of Jordan, just yet.
How do I know? Jeremiah 25:15-26 is a list of the nations who come against Israel at Armageddon. Verse 26 states "And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth..."
How do I know this is Armageddon and not the final battle at the end of the millennium? The passage says that it is God who brings this judgment on the world, but elsewhere God states that He is not the one bringing the nations against Israel at the final battle. (Isaiah 54:15)
Earlier in verse 21 he states "Edom, Moab, and the Children of Ammon" will be a part of this invasion. If these nations are destroyed before Armageddon they will not be able to participate in Armageddon. They will be destroyed during Armageddon, before the millennial reign, and shall not participate in the final battle at the end of the millennium.
Psalm 83 must come before Gog/Magog, because the Arabs are listed as the nations protesting the war (Sheba, Dedan and Tarshish). If Ezekiel 38-39 came first the Arabs would join in the attack.
The Psalm 83 war is responsible for the peace between the Arabs and Israel. The treaty signed after that war will allow the walls to come down, and the Temple to be rebuilt.
I think this same treaty will be the one confirmed by the Antichrist in the wake of the Gog and Magog war. This is why it says the Antichrist will "confirm" a covenant. He will not originate it, but will reinstate a treaty that has already been shown to work, between the Arabs and Israel.
Just because a passage might say "they shall know I am the Lord" does not mean that they will all immediately be saved. It only means that they will know who the true God is. They will abandon their faith in false gods like Allah or Krishna, but it doesn't mean they will turn to God with all their hearts. That will take the Tribulation.
Ezekiel 39:25 speaks of this being the time that the last remnants of Israel will now return. If Gog-Magog was Armageddon you would have a large part of Israel missing the Tribulation, in exile in other countries. The Tribulation is all about Israel and their relationship with God. None of them will be sitting pretty, outside of Israel, while God's Judgment falls on their brothers.
On the contrary, they will return when they think it's safe. They will return when they think the Time of Jacob's trouble is over, only the truth is it hasn't yet begun!
What I'm saying is that Psalm 83 and Gog-Magog will be interpreted as being the Tribulation, not only by Israel, but also by many professing Christians. Once these wars are over people will be saying "peace and safety". They will be anticipating the millennial reign of Christ, only it will be the Antichrist who will show up instead!
Those predisposed to allegorical interpretation will begin to think "maybe Jesus isn't really going to return physically, maybe He returns in Spirit, in the form of another person", and they will crown the Antichrist!
I have fleshed out this theory in my book "The Spirit of Prophecy", but I believe I have given you enough evidence to show what I am saying is true. Check out the passages I have listed.
It seems that I also hold the view that tribulation is only 3.5 years length and we will be raptured right before that time frame.
In addition to it, for me Gog and Magog seems to happen at the end of millenia not before it.
The next one to happen is Psalm 83 war that will ignite the third world war and of course the rapture of the church would happen right before those all happens. Therefore, for the left behinders, the rapture of the church will be hidden under the rubble of the world war three and all of us will be counted as missing persons like what happened in Tsunami in Japan. While in reality many will be death because of the catasthropic event that happens so fast in so short period, the rapture is hidden inside this event ... Only the wise and the chosen ones (144000 persons) will know what has happened and begin to preach about it!!!
The Jewish wedding tradition really makes me think that the tribulation is 7 years long and the church is saved out of it, all 7 years. In the tradition, the groom comes for his bride and takes her away for one week (7days/years). Not for 3 1/2 days/years. The last 3 1/2 years will be when Israel will be brought to the understanding of her Messiah and know that the AC is definitely the AC. The most severe judgment comes at this time culminating in the 2nd coming.
Wow brothers and sisters! What an amazing response...
You've given me plenty of food for thought here, and definitely challenged my views! Back to the Bible for me then.. (c:
And to Faith Won, thank you for the compliment about The Outlaw by I have to say that I didn't write that one, it's a Larry Norman song, but IMHO it's was his finest lyric ever and I really wanted to do a cover of it.
PEACE, LOVE, ROCK 'N ROLL
humblehorse
If I remember correctly, a tribulation period of seven years is accepted, then the scriptures makes a further distinction, of the latter 3 1/2yrs by calling it the "great tribulation". Apparently this is something that builds or escalates and then culminates, given the sequential nature of seals, trumpets, bowls. In any event, Daniels' 70th week is 7yrs. Seems to me that if the first 3 1/2yrs is devoid of any of the judgements written in the book, then and only then can we conclude the tribulation period to be only 3 1/2yrs.
With regards to the Gog & Magog war Prof John Walfoord, on faculty staff at Dallas Theological Seminary for well over 50yr, and considered to be one of the greatest prophecy expositors and teachers for sixty yrs; states that Ezek 38 war will happen apprx 4yrs before the return of the Lord.
Love & blessings...Tender Reed
Tender Reed
I have somewhat of a disagreement with Dr. Walvoord, and the staff of DTS.
If the Gog and Magog war occurs approximately 4 years into the Tribulation, we have the problem of the fuel of the enemy armies being burned for 7 years. This would mean that Israel would be burning the fuel well into the millennial reign of Christ. (Eze. 39:9)
Since Jesus is going to restore Garden of Eden conditions at his return, I find it difficult to imagine that Israel will need to continue burning that fuel.
Since Israel will be forced to flee to the wilderness around the mid point in the Tribulation, when the Antichrist sets up the abomination of desolation, there is the problem of who will be burying the soldiers of the enemy armies for seven months? (Eze. 39:11-12) Are they going to come back from the wilderness to bury the dead, and then go back into hiding?
Are they going to carry great quantities of fuel with them as they rush off away from the Antichrist's soldiers? Jesus said they would not even have time to go home to gather clothes. (Matt 24:17) Is the burning of that fuel going to be interrupted by their flight, and then resumed when they return?
If Walvoord is correct, that the Gog-Magog war will be at the 4 year point, then Israel will already be in hiding before it starts, since the abomination of desolation occurs at around the 3 1/2 year point. No, the seven years of burning the fuel will be over by the mid-point of the Tribulation.
The best answer for the timing of the Ezekiel 38-39 war, is that it precedes the Tribulation by at least 3 1/2 years. This war will cause the people of the world to expect the millennial reign of Christ, because they think it was Armageddon. This interpretation will be a part of Satan's deception.
While I have great respect for the effort that goes into obtaining degrees at DTS, they are dead wrong on this one. When you try to force events into your predetermined ideas you are bound to make mistakes.
dknezacek,
The timing of the judgment on Jordan has been illustrated in Isaiah 16 and Zephaniah 2.It should be at the beginning of the tribulation,not at the end of it like you have suggested.
Instead of going verse by verse,I shall make it brief.
Isaiah 16 is a warning from God concerning Jordan.In the first 5 verses,God has specifically warned Jordan to look after Israel his people,represented by the outcasts in verse 3 and 4,when Israel faces her adversary in the second half of the tribulation.
Isaiah 16:3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
4Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
For in a little while,a throne shall be established,with the second coming of Christ.
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.
Jordan is being judged because of the following reason.
6 We have heard of the pride of Moab; he is very proud: even of his haughtiness, and his pride, and his wrath: but his lies shall not be so.
And this is how Jordan will be judged.
7 Therefore shall Moab howl for Moab, every one shall howl: for the foundations of Kirhareseth shall ye mourn; surely they are stricken.
8For the fields of Heshbon languish, and the vine of Sibmah: the lords of the heathen have broken down the principal plants thereof, they are come even unto Jazer, they wandered through the wilderness: her branches are stretched out, they are gone over the sea.
The lords of heathen in verse 8 signals God shall use the gentiles to judge Jordan.
And the timing of her judgment has been foretold by God in verse 13.
13 This is the word that the LORD hath spoken concerning Moab since that time. 14But now the LORD hath spoken, saying, Within three years, as the years of an hireling, and the glory of Moab shall be contemned, with all that great multitude; and the remnant shall be very small and feeble.
Three years shall Jordan be put in shame,and her glory shall be contemned.And the remant shall be very small and feeble.
Now,which 3 years God is talking about?
The three years in the first half of the tribulation,or the 3 years in the second half of the tribulation?
From Daniel 11:41,we learn that AC shall go after Israel in the mid-trib,not Jordan.Jordan is not his target.
And from Zechariah 13:7 and 8,we learn that during the times of Jacob's trouble,2/3 shall be cut off,and 1/3 shall be left therein.The Jews shall be fleeing,they shall also be scattered among the nations.
So,the only logic is to put the 3 years judgment of Jordan in the first half of the tribulation,when Israel possess their land,so that the glory of Jordan shall be contemned,and her remnant shall be few.
And this prophecy shall be fulfilled per the fulfillment of Psalm 83,Isaiah 17 and Zechariah 11:1-10,the cut off of three shepherds.
This view is also supported by Zephaniah 2.
God begins his warning in verse 1-3,by urging the nations to seek him,that they can be hid in the days of the Lord.
Zephaniah 2:1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.
3Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.
And God has laid out his judgment in three different sequences,or period.
God begins his judgment with Gaza,Philistine(Palestine),and Jordan,from verse 4-11,with the end result being that his people Israel shall inherit the land of Jordan.
And from verse 12,we learn that Ethiopian shall be the next.
When shall Ethiopian be judged during the tribulation?
We learn from Daniel 11:42-43 that Ethiopia like Egypt shall be invaded by AC during the second half of the tribulation,right after AC invades Israel.
And God concludes Zephaniah 2 by proclaiming that he shall destroy Assyria,and making Ninevah desolate,with the following verses.
Zephaniah 2:13 And he will stretch out his hand against the north, and destroy Assyria; and will make Nineveh a desolation, and dry like a wilderness.
14And flocks shall lie down in the midst of her, all the beasts of the nations: both the cormorant and the bittern shall lodge in the upper lintels of it; their voice shall sing in the windows; desolation shall be in the thresholds: for he shall uncover the cedar work.
15This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is none beside me: how is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in! every one that passeth by her shall hiss, and wag his hand.
And we all agree that Babylon or Assyria shall be judged by God near the end of tribulation.
In brief,God begins his judgment on Gaza,Palestine and Jordan at the beginning of tribulation.
Mid-trib we have Ethiopians.
At the end of the trib,we have Assyria or Babylon.
My conclusion,both Isaiah 16 and Zephaniah 2 suggests Jordan shall receive her judgment at the beginning of tribulation,not at the end of the tribulation.
Even Obadiah 1 has suggested it also.But I don't have time to go over Obadiah 1 now.
And concerning Jeremiah 25:15-38,it is known as Judgment of The Nations to many bible scholars.It is not about God gathering all the nations against Israel,but it is about God sending swords to all the nations.
Jeremiah 25:15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it. 16And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.
Verse 17-26 lists out the participants of God's judgment.They are all the nations that dwell on this earth.
And this is how God shall judge all the nations.
15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it. 16And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.
29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
Will God judge all the nations by bringing in the world war 3?
Is this what the "sword" means?
I believe so.
I have listed out the future events in a chronological order under my thread "A possible timeline".
Feel free to read it.
God bless.
And I appreciate your thought that many left behind shall be tricked into believing that they have just witnessed the battle of Armageddon,and not knowing that they have just seen the Gog/Magog invasion.
This deception is manipulated by Satan,and pave way for the arrival of son of perdition.
2nd coming,
Obadiah 1:18 says there will be "none remaining of the house of Esau." Now, if Edom receives its judgment at the beginning of the Tribulation then we have the problem of the armies of Armageddon including Moab, Edom, and Ammon, in Jeremiah 25:21.
Lamentation 4:22 indicates that the punishment of Israel will end at the same time as the punishment of Edom begins. When is that? Has Israel's punishment ended just yet? No, it will end when they call out to Jesus to save them, during the latter half of the Tribulation. Thus we can know that the destruction of Jordan is reserved for the latter half of the Tribulation.
Ezekiel 35 is a prophecy against Edom, known also as Seir. Verse 14 tells us when they will be desolate:
"Thus saith the Lord GOD; When the whole earth rejoiceth, I will make thee desolate." Ezekiel 35:14
When will the whole world rejoice? At the millennial reign, of course, which would time their destruction to just before that time, ie. the battle of Armageddon.
What of the remnant of Edom? God gave us clues;
Leave thy fatherless children, I will preserve them alive; and let thy widows trust in me. Jeremiah 49:11
You see there will be some saved from Jordan. They will be women and children, and they will trust in Jesus. Where will they end up? They will marry into Jewish families, so in the end it will truly be said "there is none remaining of the house of Esau".
Their husbands will die as members of the Antichrists army, fighting Jesus at His return.
"That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this." Amos 9:12
The remnant of Edom, who are called by the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ, will not be part of the armies of Armageddon, but will be hiding out in the wilderness with Israel. Isaiah 16:2 indicates that women of Moab will also be involved in saving the Jews.
But, this is perfect! If the Antichrist comes from Jordan, isn't it poetic justice that some of his own people, women, will be involved in saving the very people he is trying to destroy, Israel! Oh, yeah!
You mentioned Daniel 11:41. Lets take a look at it shall we?
"He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon."
You are implying that Jordan will not exist at this time, and this is why they will escape the hand of the Antichrist. Bill Salus says much the same thing, but I disagree.
The reason Jordan will escape the Antichrist is not because they are gone, but because he is one of them! He has no reason to defeat them, because they are his original power base! They are the ones who put him on the throne!
Think about it. Esau originally had the blessing of the first son. He sold it to his brother for a bowl of stew, but his descendants want it back, even today!
There are prophecies in the bible that describe the destruction of Amman, Jordan, which parallel the destruction of Babylon. Jeremiah 49:2 is one of them.
Amman has had several names during its history. When Jeremiah wrote it was called Rabbah. During the New Testament times it was known as Philadelphia! It was also known as "the city of seven jabals" (Arabic for mountains)!
I am convinced that the Babylon of Revelation 17 is Babylon Iraq. I think the seven mountains of that passage is the "Seven Mountain Mandate" that the New Apostolic Reformation crowd is talking about. It will be revived as an ecumenical capital with the NAR as a prominent member.
The "Babylon" of Revelation 18, in my opinion, is Amman, Jordan, which was once known as Philadelphia, and may take that name again in the near future. That city will escape destruction during the Psalm 83 war, and is reserved for the Lord Jesus to personally destroy at His return.
Rome? I think Rome is an amazing counterfeit. I expect Rome will be destroyed during the Gog-Magog war, as a part of Satan's deception. He has no love for that city, but will use it and discard it like so much trash, when it is convenient for him.
Think about it; How could it be that the original Babylon could pick up the place of world domination again? Rome stands in the way, but with Rome out of the way, there would be nothing stopping the religions of the world from coming together in Babylon.
It won't happen in Rome, in spite of the Vatican's push in that direction. Rome has too much baggage. Today Babylon really doesn't have any baggage, does it?
Would they use the old rebuilt ruins, or would they build something new? Personally I think they will build something new and impressive, within sight of the old ruins.
(Mod Edit)
Quote by Donna: Israel taking seven years to burn the weapons for fuel (Ezek. 39:9)
‘Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel'.
matches the seven year timeframe given in Daniel 9:27 of the Tribulation lasting.
Hmmmmmm ~~~ Since both take seven years, would Gog-Magog happen before the Tribulation?.
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Actually, I believe it fits best at the beginning of the Tribulation. The consequences of the war nicely parallel the Seal Judgments. Also, if careful study shows that Ezekiel 39:17-29 are about Armageddon. In other words, Ezekiel 38-39 describe "bookend" wars of the Tribulation.
dknezacek,
Finally I see where you are coming from.You believe AC shall come from Jordan and the Jordanians shall become his accomplice one day.
And your pre-supposition have lead you to find scripture that supports your view.
But by reading the scripture that you have quoted,none of them whatsoever suggest that AC shall come from Jordan except Jordan shall be judged like others.
And you do come up with some theory that are unheard of.You have linked Babylon to Amman,or Philadelphia.They are non-scriptual,and should be refuted.
God's has laid out his judgment on Jordan in Obadiah 1,in different phases,starting with a war,which ultimately leads to the return of our Lord.
1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.
We are about to see this prophecy to be fulfilled.This is also in parallel to Isaiah 16:8-10,Zechariah 11:1-3.A war shall come upon Jordan,and they shall be trampled by the gentiles.Jordan shall do her part in the upcoming Psalm 83,Isaiah 17 fulfillment.
And God has given us the reason of her judgment from verse 2-5.
2 Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: thou art greatly despised.
3The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?
4 Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.
The seriousness of her judgment.
5 If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night, (how art thou cut off!) would they not have stolen till they had enough? if the grapegatherers came to thee, would they not leave some grapes?
6How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden things sought up!
7All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is none understanding in him.
8Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?
9And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.
Moreover,it is their desire to cut off his people Israel that has provoked God's anger on them.
10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.
How shall Jordan be cut off for ever?
According to Zephaniah 2:9,Jordan shall be ceased to become a country,and Israel shall possess their land.
This prophecy shall be fulfilled after Psalm 83,and Ezekiel 38/39.And this is the beginning of the tribulation.
But has God done with the Jordanians yet?
Not quite,because of their hatred against his people when Israel faces her adversary during the mid-trib invasion by AC and the gentiles nations.
Obadiah 1 is just like Zephaniah 2,and many other scriptures that the foretelling of a judgment on a nation,is progressive,linear,and shall span over the entire 7 years tribulation.God shall not limit his word to a certain period,when his word sets forth against a nation.
Starting from verse 11,God's timing has been changed to mid-trib,also known as the times of Jacob's trouble.
11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.
12But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.
13Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;
14Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.
From verse 11-14,we learn that God has forth warned Jordan not to rejoice over the calamity of Judah in the day of their calamity.Neither should they enter into the gates of his people,nor lay hands on their substance.
They should never stay in the crossway,to cut off they that escape,nor deliver up those who remains in the day of distress.
15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Together with Jordan,all the nations shall be drunken continually, up until the second coming of our Lord.
16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
17But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
18And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
19And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.
20And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south.
21And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.
Israel shall repossess all the land that they have lost during the time of the calamity.And saviours shall come from mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.
During the calamity of Israel,we learn that Jordan can only be the accomplice,not the one who is leading this attack.
11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.
A note here.Even after Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38/39,when Israel possess the land of Jordan,it doesn't mean that they shall drive all the Jordanians out of their land.They shall live side by side,just like the Palestinians currently live side be side with the Jews.
As we can learn from Obadiah 1,together with Psalm 83,Zechariah 11:1-10,and more,Jordan shall be judged early in the tribulation.But God has also preserved them to the mid-trib,and even until the end of the tribulation,so all his prophecies against Esau,Edom,Moab including Ezekiel 35,shall be fulfilled.
And nowhere I find from scripture that suggests your view that AC shall come from Jordan,least to say Jordan has the condition to produce a Anti Christ.
2nd coming,
Nothing you said refutes what I have stated. Furthermore I did a lot of research when writing my book, which I will not repeat here. I will, however, give you some clues:
I started with the idea that Rome was the Harlot of Revelation 17-18. That was my presupposition, but as I studied, the Lord changed my mind. I found that the Scriptures do not support the idea of Rome as the Harlot of Revelation 17-18. This is a counterfeit that Satan is working very hard on, to make Rome fit this passage, for the purpose of deceiving the world!
Daniel 9:26 "...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;..."
Now go and read Josephus' "The Jewish War", book 4. In it he lays out the case that Edom, or Idumea, is the nation responsible for the Destruction of Jerusalem. Therefore, according to Daniel 9:26, the nation of Edom will be the one to produce the Antichrist. I didn't make it up, Josephus is an eye witness who was there!
It is a historical fact that Amman, Jordan, was known as "the city of seven jabals", or seven mountains. It is also a historical fact that Amman was known as "Philadelphia" during the time of Christ. I didn't make anything up. Should I set aside the knowledge the Lord has given me, to stick with tradition? What did Jesus say about "tradition"? (Mat 15:3, 6, Mark 7:9, 13)
Amman Jordan is the only "city of seven mountains" in the entire bible! Rome was a city of "seven hills" not mountains! Pay attention to the details! God says "mountains" because "mountains" is what He means!
The passage that says this "great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." (Rev 17:18) is a prophetic passage. We do not need to see this city rule the whole earth until the very end times.
If the ten kings rule "one hour with the Beast" Rev 17:12, then we know that the Antichrist's city will only gain prominence for a very short time as well.
The people of Edom are the only nation in the bible called "The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever". If the Antichrist comes from Rome, why doesn't Rome, or Italy, have that title?
Malachi 1:4
"Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever."
To date, Germany has killed more Jews than any other nation, yet Germany doesn't suffer this fate. Therefore we know that Edom's crime will be greater than Germany's!
Edom is the only nation in the world that God calls "the people of my curse".
Isaiah 34:5
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
They are called this because they are a minor nation who supports the Antichrist? No. The best explanation is that he is one of them, they will put him on the throne, and support him to the bitter end!
Don't get me wrong, Every pope has been an antichrist! It is part of his title as "vicar of Christ". Vicar in Latin has the very same connotation as "anti" in Greek. Still, this does not mean the pope is the one, final, Antichrist!
Those who say "the Antichrist has been on the throne throughout history" are taking the Scriptures out of context! Those who think they know all there is to know, don't bother looking for alternatives, and will ultimately end up supporting the Antichrist!
Satan needs to make it very obvious who the Antichrist is, the decoy, that is. This way he will be able to sneak in the real Antichrist under the radar, as the world watches the decoy go up in flames!
I don't expect only one decoy. I think each one of the three kings the Antichrist destroys will look a lot like the Antichrist. Don't forget the bible says they "have one mind". Rev. 17:13
Go and search for all the prophecies against Edom. This will take some work, Edom is known by several different names throughout the bible. You will need to look up all those names.
These prophecies are overwhelmingly timed to occur in the End Times. While some of their crimes occurred years ago, their judgment will occur during Armageddon and not before.
In Christ,
Dan Knezacek
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