HB, First I want you to know that in anything I've said to you on this topic, it has been out of a heart of love for you, not out of anger or a spirit of fighting. I love you sis!

You asked about a reprobate mind. Romans 1:18-32 tells the story. This is about people who have never received God. In fact they mock Him. It says that He has given them a witness to Him in all things of creation, but they refuse to see it. It says that they choose to worship other gods. In fact verse 32 says: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

So, people with a reprobate mind have never received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. They haven't received forgiveness and His atonement for their sins because they don't want it.

God Bless and Love,

Verna

Amen to that. Always loved that song.

TidesofTruth wrote:

I still don't think the Hebrews 6 verse is being understood. 

Let's take it to its root without all the other qualifiers in order to better understand it.

This is exactly what the passage says without all the reasons listed in the verses about what they experienced.

It is impossible . . . if they shall fall away,to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucity to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That means if you were able to fall away there is no more salvation available for you.  I know of no one who believes in the false doctrine of OSNAS who thinks this way.  They think you can go in and out and in and out as long as you sincerely repent of your sin. 

But God says NO!  If you were able to fall away there is no more restoration.  Because of this God sealed you.  He know we are weak and clay.  He seals us because if He did not He knew we would be forever lost any time we fell into sin.

Well TOT that was a good try at the logical reasoning on Hebrews chapter six, but it is NOT the context.  If you do not place Gods Word in context, it will be misunderstood every time.  What I have written on this subject is what the contextual meaning of this chapter is all about.  The Word always interprets itself if you will just read it all and look at the sentence structure and the who,what, where, when, how and why of the message.

The fact of the matter is that the 6th chatpter of Hebrews is about the MATURITY or SANCTIFICATION of the believer, not the doctrine of Salvation from the penalty of sin.  The very first verse shows us the context where the author is telling the believing body of Christ that they need to grow up spiritually and stop discussing over and over again the basic principles of Christ which he then names.  We can know that the subject matter has to do with the maturing of the "fruit" of the believer by the analogy he uses in verses 7 and 8.  If the believer bears fruit, they recieve a blessing from God but if they bear thorns and stickers, god removes those and throws them into the fire, so that they can then bear fruit again.  It is rewards that are lost....NOT ones Salvation.

So then what verse 6 is really saying in context is that if a true believer who has been saved and washed in the blood of Jesus Christ, falls away from fellowship in their relationship with Christ, there is no more sacrifice for their sins since Jesus Christ can not be sacrifice again and be put to a shame which says that His original sacrifice was not complete or finished.   Look at V 9 "But Beloved, (I love that word when He calls me it, don't you?) we are confident of better things concerning you, yes things that accompany salvation (IE fruit of the Spirit, gifts of the Spirit, maturity)

Remember that the book of Hebrews needs to be read and understood from a first century Jewish perspective.  That perseptive is based on the feast and rituals of Temple life as a Law observant Jew.

You have to look at the context of the passage. Jesus was speaking to a Jewish Audience.  With regards to the end of the age.  This would be referring to the tribulation period which comes upon the world as a snare and a trap.  Read Isaiah chapter 24.  The context is made clear by the earlier passage.

Luke 21:20-28(NASB)

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

“Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

“Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;

and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

“There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,

men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

“Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

“But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

 Laura, from the way I read it, He's speaking to the whole congregation in the temple, and I see verification of that again in verses 37 and 38. Hope that helps.

Luke 21:37-38

And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives. And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.

God Bless and Love,

Verna

Laura C Loving the Lord wrote:

Can someone please explain who Jesus was speaking to regarding the following. Am I misunderstanding this verse as I believed he was speaking to believers.

Peace and Blessings

 

Luke 21:34-36

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

New International Version (NIV)

 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure thing Laura,

Like any verse you lift out of the Bible and try to understand it out of context, these verses are the same.

The first thing to look at is what has Jesus been saying before this, who is he talking to, and are there other parrallel verses in the Gospels?

The first thing we need to understand when trying to see how to apply these verses to our lives is are they talking to belivers and followers of Christ during the age of grace; is the message before or after the cross and resurrection of Christ and the establishment of the Church at the coming of the Holy Spirit?  If not, then who do they apply to and why would Jesus say them.

In General, all the 4 gospels are directed at the leaders and people of the Jewish nation.  Remember that Jesus said He came unto His own and they received him not.  He first sent His disciples out to only the Jewish people of Israel and forbad them to take the message of repentance and Kingdom of God is at hand to any of the Gentiles.  That only came AFTER he was rejected by His own.

The context of this portion of Luke 21 is also related in Matt. 24 and Mark 13, and is about the second coming of Christ back to Israel at the end of the age.  He is talking to his Jewish disciples who have just asked him when the signs of the end would take place. (V7). 

Jesus goes on and on about the signs, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the timing being after the times of the Gentiles is over, (in other words, at the beginnig the 70th week of Daniel/7 year tribulation). (Remember that the final 7 years of this age is all about God wooing His wife the remnant of Israel back unto Himself.)  Then he set the timing of when this is in verses 29-33 which refers to Israel the fig tree budding again, which is returning to their land which happened in 1948 after a 2000 yr. absence; and then tells how the generation alive when that happens will not pass away until His second coming has taken place.  That means within 70 to 80 years after Israel became a nation again.

Then he speaks ahead in time to the remnant of Israel living during the Final Seven Years we call the Tribulation and warns them not to be carousing and drunk for the day of His second coming will come on them unexpectedly and be a snare to all the unbelieving world.  Then he turns and says to His disciples who are standing there listening to Him "Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape THESE THINGS that will come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man"

What things?  All the things he just described happening during the 7 year tribulation period in the first 28 verses of this chapter.  Since the disciples hearing this lesson would not be alive at the time Jesus was talking about he could not have been referring to them.  However, we know that there will be a remnant of Israel who will believe and will follow the Lamb and will be killed and tortured by the Anti-christ during those final 7 years.  It is to those he is speaking here.

This is NOT a message on the doctrine of Salvation.  God revealed that to Paul after the cross and resurrection and ascension and coming of the Holy Spirit.  The epistiles of Paul clearly spell out the doctrine of Salvation from the penalty of sin and the doctrine of Sanctification from the habit of sin.  These verses in Luke 21 are not speaking to the body of Christ during the age of grace and can not be used to justify a different doctrine of grace that is revealed at a later time.

Hope that helps

Tom

Whoops, I see that Knight Michael has already answered the question much better and more concise than I.

My vote of thanks, too, Bluebird, and a big

to your excellent explanation of a true believer dead to sin, and walking in a renewed life in Jesus Christ   ~~

For the believer having the Holy Spirit abiding, the world's sin and its lusts pale in the Light of the Living God and His Power  . .

Hisbeloved » if God is for me then who can be against me right?

You just answered all your own questions . .   What higher Authority and assurance do we need re:  the flesh.

Lord Jesus, thank You, Great Shepherd and Keeper of the Redeemed, for assuring us that the Accuser of the brethren has nothing on Your church, and that the gates of Hell shall not prevail .  . .  Praise God, Jesus is for us, and does not condemn His own . . for it is our Lord's glorious Power of mercy and grace He pleasures in ~~ 

I am so grateful that the decision of whether I make it to heaven or not won't be decided by another sinner. I grew up in a denominational church that focuses on self-works. I've witnessed and even experienced the fear and condemnation that comes from this.

We will move toward that which our eyes are focused on. Therefore, Scripture tells us to keep our eyes on Jesus, not ourselves. (Hebrews 12:2) As we gaze at Him through His Word, we are transformed into His image. (2 Corinthians 3:18) Holiness comes by looking at the One who is Holy. We become holy as we walk and talk with Jesus day-by-day, allowing Him to work in our lives. Scriptures that are used to teach a works-righteousness are always taken out of context. The fear of being kicked out of God's family always destroys peace and sanity. I've been there. Believing that our works is what tips the balance not only leaves room for boasting, but belittles the precious blood of Jesus. (Ephesians 2:9) I, for one, reject such teaching, and will continue to trust in the finished work of my Lord and Savior.

HisBeloved, there are many out there who do not know the Savior. Wouldn't it be a better use of time and efforts for a person to attempt to bring the lost ones to Christ, rather than focusing such efforts on trying to condemn the ones who already know Him?

It is all about The Standard . The standard to get to Heaven is you must be perfect as The Lord is perfect . This is the biblical requirement which never changes .

People who are flesh and blood can never reach a perfect standard God requires so God sent His Own Son to walk out The Law for us and to pay for our sins and shortcomings and flaws on The Cross . If we accept this gift of Grace in Christ we are saved . After we are saved we fellowship with Christ through the Holy Spirit . Our obedience is rewarded after The Rapture with rewards and crowns . But firstly we were and are saved In Him .  He is the standard for us ...his perfection is imputed to us as we can never be perfect . ********All holiness people talk about is being holy , but they never tell you if they actually reach the perfect standard ,which of  course they can never do (like Christ ). That is why OSAS people will not listen to what they preach , because we know that they are not living a perfect holy life that they constantly sermonize about on these forums , they are rather failing and slipping in their lives just like everyone else is , but they never Admit This ! I believe that to be hypocritical ......they do not ever reach the perfect standard they preach on and on about , but they still Require It of others ...it is a form of nagging . Nagging other Christians to do what you yourselves can never do ....reach the perfect standard only JESUS could reach ...it turns me off and i will not listen to it . I find it  self-righteous and off-putting . If we talk of holiness let us talk of "His Holiness "for it has Merit and it is Worthy .....of  course , it is perfect !

It is a great example of this : Holiness preaching :
Do as I say , not as I do !  ...which is shallow preaching in my thinking

 To me Christ is perfect ....I am not nor will I ever be perfect as He is , so I am depending on His Holiness Most Perfect imputed to me to get me to Heaven . All men are dependent on Christ to get them to Heaven or they can not go .....simple as that ...

Hisbeloved said, "bluebird...I wasn't saying that you want to do the things you used to, only that your flesh does"

No- it doesn't. My flesh does not long to go out and do the things I used to do. I don't go to the places I used to go--- I don't want to be in those places. I don't put myself into those same kind of situations-- I don't want to be in them. If I did hang out in those same places with the same kind of crowd, then I'm sure that in time my flesh would be tempted, and that's where a struggle would begin. But why would I do that??? The people who knew me then could really tell you about this, because they got angry with me for not being like them anymore. They hated the change in me.

Yes, yes , .   Preach it, Bluebird and W&W . .  

I think this is a major thread here and I have the exact same question just like ren000...

Will I or others still be raptured if we fall into sin and leave it unconfessed?

Will God still rapture that person or will He leave Him behind due to his sin?

Isn't God coming for a pure, spotless, perfect, holy Bride?

I'm sorry if I sound ignorant of the Scriptures but it's just that all my life I've been taught that if you leave one sin unconfessed...you're going to hell...

Now the Spirit of Truth is shedding some lightto me on this issue but I still need guidance here people...

May the Spirit of Truth guide us all into all Truth....Amen....

God bless you all....

I think there is a difference between what Hisbeloved and I have been discussing--- our former life in general before salvation --- and what you are now bringing up--- addictions. We've been discussing a new heart with new desires. With that new heart comes the desire to be free from addictions, but addictions are strongholds, and we need special deliverance from them. I used to smoke cigarettes and that did not go away the day I was born again. I went round and round with this thing and got nowhere. At one point I even got angry that the Lord wouldn't deliver me when I wanted Him to. He finally did deliver me--- praise God! But it took some time.

Continue to cry out to Him for deliverance. Command any spirits that might be connected to it to leave you alone in Jesus' Name. Trust in God's grace, for He knows your heart and how you want to be free. He knows you are struggling. He knows everything. So don't give up, but keep going back to the Lord about this. The Lord is our Deliverer. Remember that He's the one who gave you the desire to be free. Ask Him if there's anything He wants you to do concerning this that might help win the victory. He is our Guide, and He knows us better than anyone. Go to Him with all this when you aren't being tempted. Ask Him ahead of time to help you resist the temptation when it comes. Again, keep asking for Deliverance. He tells us in His Word to be persistant, and not give up. If you give in to temptation, then remember his mercy, and repent. Remember He loves you. I'm sorry I cannot explain why He doesn't deliver all of us from addictions the moment we are born again. I will continue to pray for you.

 Knight Michael said:

If you are a Christian you are either heading into a crisis, weathering through a crisis or heading out of a crisis.  That is just part of our big test called life.  We need to be thankful to God that He sees us through all of that.  No matter what comes our way.  Amen?

Amen! Thank you for saying this dear brother! This is solid truth!

God Bless and Love,

Verna

I would say YES, you would be raptured, because ALL your sins have been removed from you as far as the East is from the West. That's called GRACE. Amazing, isn't it?

Brad, you posted your reply while I was still writing mine, but we quoted the same verse.  I love it when that happens!

The replies on here are well informed and I believe the Spirit of Truth is guiding us all into all Truth!
Praise Him! Praise His most holy name! Amen! :)

By the way....welcome JimT!! :)
May God bless you all!! :)

I just have to praise Him! I have had struggles, yes. Alot of heartache. Shortly after Jesus walked into my life, my whole world turned upside down, and it's not made much sense in all these years. Much depression. Many disappointments. But one thing I can say is that Jesus has been faithful. Some people may think His grace makes me want to take advantage of Him, but the truth is His grace makes me draw closer to Him. It makes me love Him more and more. He has never thrown me away. Other people have, but Jesus never! Even when I've fallen He has never left me. He has never kicked me out. Jesus keeps His promises. He promised to complete the good work He started in me and He is faithful to that. He promised to keep me, and to never leave me or forsake me, and He's been faithful to that. I am His, and He is mine. He's been faithful ever since He walked into my life, 20 years ago! Praise the Lord!

continuing from above ............

       The Cherished Advocacy of Christ :

                           HE is ever before The Throne , advocating for you . His advocating does not suddenly stop at some unknown point , but rather persists for you until The Rapture when it is no longer needed . You are then in Heaven with Him in Eternity .

               Once you were saved , Christ saw this salvation action in Eternity , not our time .

Our time is temporal . If you could see salvation in an eternal way as God sees it , then you would understand , at last,  that salvation is ETERNAL .

                 As The Word tells us :

          " Whom He foreknew , He foreordained , whom He foreordained , He Forgave !"

This is an Eternal Statement that can NEVER be unsubstantiated in Heaven . It cannot be undone !  It cannot be wiped out !

               So , you , who have  " Put On Christ ", may forever rejoice !

  HE has made us Free ! And Whom the Son has made free , is free Indeed   !

     an ongoing advocacy ....We have it in The Son !

Welcome, Jim T! So glad you joined us her and so glad you posted that verse!  There is no way around that verse and it says it all.  The OSANS group cannot explain this one away.  God bless, and I look forward to your future posts.

2 Cor. 3:5  Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,

Hi Watching,

I love the scriptures that was posted by all who contributed. However, there are scriptures that support the arguments of both "groups."

There will always be debates on this issue [which usually causes strife]. But I think you'll agree that either group isn't any more saved than the other.

The beauty of this is that unity does not have to be uniformity. We can still fellowship together in the love of Christ whether one holds the position of OSAS or not.

Hope everyone has a great day, God bless!

LovedbyGod » Please don't ever worry about being left behind. Jesus said our work is to believe in the One God has sent (John 6:29).

amen!!     God says 'worrying' is a sin.   Any sin misses the mark, and will keep us out of Heaven ~~~ . . the Standard has been met by Christ, He alone is the Power to seal us . . 

Hi Ren000,

Your original question was that when a genuine Christian who is struggling with an addiction or an area of weakness and if Jesus were to return at that moment when that same Christian is commiting this sin, would they be taken up in the rapture, right?  You were looking for a "yes" or "no" answer. 

I believe yes they would.  Why?  For one thing, I believe that if a genuine Christian truly loves the Lord, he or she would not take advantage of God's grace.  Rather, they would be struggling against the sin, and asking the Lord to deliver them from it.  I believe every Christian has some kind of  weakness/sin/struggle/addiction they are not proud of.  Some worse than others.  I know I do.  But that doesn't mean that they are no longer a child of God if they have something that they are struggling with.  The apostle Paul elaborates on this stuggle against sin in Romans 7.  I can't find a scripture that says if the person is doing something they shouldn't when the rapture comes, they will be left behind. 

Secondly, there are two scriptures that give me encouragement that the Lord isn't going to leave us behind when the rapture comes, and this is it:  Check out 1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. That tells me that if we're doing something wrong when the rapture occurs, we will be ashamed, but we're not going to miss the rapture.  We will probably miss out on rewards at the Bema Seat Judgment, but not on the rapture itself.

The other scripture that convinces me that all genuine Christans are going in the rapture no matter what is 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.  I don't see anyplace where it says that only the holy ones will be caught up together, it says "we who are alive and remain."

Lastly, for those of us who do struggle with besetting sin, there is reassurance from the Lord that He will santify us until the last day.  Check out 1 Thessalonians 5:23 And now, may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Not only that, but here is my personal favorite: Phillipians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So you see, Ren000,  we are in good hands.  Hope that answers your question.

Thank you Daniel, Watching, and Faithwon for your warm welcome !

Understanding 2 Corinthians 3:15 was a huge growth spurt in my walk.  It literally allowed me to enter into the "Sabbath Rest" that the scriptures promised and I so longed for.

We are saved by grace through faith.  Our salvation is a gift from God.  Our righteousness is also a gift. 

Paul explains to us in Romans 5:15-17:

"But the gift is not like the trespass.  For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!  Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man's sin: the judgement followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.  For if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ !"

A gift ceases to be a gift if it can be taken back.  Likewise, grace cannot be earned.  Under the law, God said "if you do this, I will bless you."  Under grace, Jesus says "I have done this (taken our sins upon himself) , therefore you are blessed (made righteous and justified).  It is because of this truth that we (as Paul wrote)  "reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!"

As we begin to understand and trust in the finished work of Christ, all the confusion and worry simply melts away and the peace of God fills our heart. 

I pray this is a word for someone.

Grace upon Grace