Matthew 24's Days of Noah – Not about the Rapture

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  • #126725
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Moderator

    In a recent prophecy update, I heard a pastor say he did not understand how Matthew 24’s “eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage” could relate to the Second Coming because things will be so very far from normal at that time. Therefore, this must relate to the rapture.

    It does not.

    The days of Noah regards Israel only. The church is not in view at all. We have to keep in mind Enoch was a picture of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Noah was not. Rather, Noah and his family were a picture of the remnant which will be saved through judgment. The church will be removed from the entire 7 years, which fulfills the promise Jesus gave in Revelation 3:10.

    Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Even though God will be fiercely judging the world via the bowls of wrath, business in the beast kingdom, and especially as regards Babylon, will be business as usual. This is fully comprehended by the text of Revelation 18. Music and weddings and work and daily craft are all seen as disappearing with her final destruction. Thus, until that point, it will be “business as usual”.

    And when does this destruction happen in order for me to make this assertion? Between the pouring out of Vial/Bowl 7 (which is the final judgment of the 21) and the Second Coming. Babylon’s destruction within the sequence of Revelation’s events is found in Revelation 16. The details of Babylon’s destruction are found in Revelation 17-18, with emphasis being placed on the details of the world’s dealings with her, as well as their lamentations over her destruction, in chapter 18.

    We can’t look at the “eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage” from a church view, because the church isn’t “of the world”. Naturally, just as Jesus forewarns in John 15, the world will hate us. This, we know, will not be conducive to any part of the Tribulation then being “business as usual” for new converts. Their persecution during that time period will be far worse than it is even now. But those aren’t the people Jesus is referring to. He is referring to those who will be in darkness. Thus, Babylon and Revelation 18 stand as prooftext of how the unbelieving world will look at Jesus’s Second Coming. And yes, they’ll be eating, drinking, marrying and given in marriage. And they won’t know what hit them when He returns to judge. Just like the people in Noah’s day didn’t know what hit them until the flood came and took them all away.

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #126753

    Watchman35
    Participant

    Very interesting you should write about this Heather. I have been reading, praying about, and pondering over Matthew 24 lately, trying to find the mind of the Lord in fitting all the pieces together. The more I read it and meditate upon it, the more convinced I am that it is the Jewish Messiah talking to the Jewish disciples about the eminently Jewish 70th Week of Daniel, with the rapture nowhere in view. So many parts of the passage are distinctly Jewish, like the abomination of desolation in the temple, the fleeing from Judea to the mountains, and the admonition to pray that their flight would not be on a Sabbath. All of this is very Jew-centric, with the mystery of the rapture having not yet been revealed to the disciples.

    The biggest area where I have struggled reconciling this view is around the “Days of Noah”/Business as Usual paradigm that you touched upon. When you read about how horrific the judgments will be (seals, trumpets, bowls), it is very hard for me to envision how people will be living “business-as-usual” lives of eating, drinking and marrying. With literally billions of people having been killed over the seven year period and conditions more horrific than we can even begin to imagine, it seems like it will be survival mode, not business as usual. Would be interested to hear if you have any other thoughts or insights in this regard.

    One possibility I have considered is that the “thief in the night”/”business as usual” dynamic might possibly refer to the start of the overall period of the end (i.e., the start of Daniel’s 70th week) being initiated like a thief. Is it possible, without any reference to the rapture, the Lord is referring to the “day and hour that no one knows” as being the start of 70th week (aka Judgment), which could come upon people as sudden destruction while they are living lives of “business-as-usual”? Pretty much everything else in the chapter makes sense and fits within the understanding that this is all about the Jewish perspective of the Lord’s physical 2nd coming to establish His kingdom on earth, not the rapture.

    As the Church, we sometimes fail to place scripture in its proper cultural and chronological context while tending to view most passages as being all about us. This creates the risk of completely misinterpreting the intended Jewish meaning and cultural context on passages such as Matthew 24-25.

    Would welcome any insight that anyone else has on Matthew 24, and particularly how the “Days of Noah”/”Business As Usual”/”Surprise” element fits into the puzzle. Thanks in advance.

    John 14:1-3 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

    #126762
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Moderator

    The thief in the night is a reference to unbelievers at the Second Coming.

    Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

    Also see II Peter 3:10:

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    None of that happens at the rapture, only at the Second Coming. I don’t understand how it’ll all work out either, but people will be conducting business through the end of the Week which sees the destruction of the city which headquarters all their religion and trade and wealth.

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #126763

    2ndcoming
    Participant

    Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    To see if “But of that day and hour knoweth no man” refers to second coming or rapture, I have pointed out before that Jesus’s account in Luke 17 has given us the answer already.

    Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    The key words is “when the Son of man is revealed”. Jesus didn’t speak of his physical return to this earth. Rather,he spoke of the world’s acknowledgement of his existence in the event rapture,during which he calls his church home. This is how he reveals himself to nations through his divine power by making millions of his followers disappear from earth.

    And since Luke 17:26-30 speaks of the same event in Matthew 24:36-40 ( verse to verse in exact same way ),we can conclude that “no man knows the day and hour” points to the event rapture,emphasized by Jesus with these words “when the Son of man is revealed”.

    #126765

    beulahland
    Participant

    I am glad you posted this, Heather. I, too, have been noodling over this one. I agree wholeheartedly with you. It makes such good sense and, though hard to picture from our current state of (relative) safety and peace, the human drive to seek normalcy is astonishing. There was a beautiful movie some years ago called “Hope and Glory” that was essentially about this. •warning…a few bad parts. Normal life is messy•. Even during wartime amazingly mundane things still go on. From that perspective, I can see weddings and buying and selling going on between calamities.


    #126775
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Moderator

    The son of man is the title given to Jesus in the book of Matthew, as opposed to being the Son of God in John. All relate to the Second Coming, except passages in John 14 and such which talk about a mystery which was still hidden. Even so, the days of Noah… Noah and his family entered the ark and stayed there for 7 days before God closed the door and the rains came. During that 7-day period, anyone else could have chosen to board the ark. But they didn’t. That’s like the the 7-year Trib. The ark door will be open to people aside from the remnant. But at the end of the 7 years, Jesus shuts the door on those who have not entered i.e. believed in the gospel, and fire burns up the earth and the works therein.

    “When the son of man is revealed” is always about the second coming and the Kingdom age.

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #126777
    Loz
    Loz
    Participant

    Well said Heather, can we have this topic as Ritan sticky?

    Loz :]

    Psalm 18:2
    The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.


    #126778
    NoFear- JustFaith
    NoFear- JustFaith
    Participant

    There has been a lot of discussions that I have read that talk about whether Matthew 24 is talking about the 2nd coming or the rapture. I don’t pretend to know but I do get confused trying to make it about the 2nd Coming. The Bible lays out the timeline of the 2nd Coming starting with the date of the Anti-Christ coming on the scene and then confirmed again giving the length of time for the first and second half of the tribulation. So if you start counting once the Anti-Christ comes on the scene, then even recount for assurance at the time of the desolation, you know when the 2nd coming is. What we DON’T know is, when the Anti-Christ comes on the scene. Whenever he does, we know that we will be gone before that time but can’t calculate when that will be because we don’t know.

    In addition to that… WE are Noah and his family. They were rescued from the flood just as we are rescued from the tribulation. They entered the ark just BEFORE the flood and we will be raptured just before the tribulation.
    ‘…people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, UP TO THE DAY NOAH ENTERED THE ARK…’

    All this ended when Noah entered the ark. I believe there will be business, eating drinking and marrying during the tribulation – people still have to eat and live right, but I think it will be anything but normal. Babylon will still be doing business – very evilly so but all normalcy will end at the rapture.

    Great thread Heather. Lots of good thoughts and reasoning’s in here and very interesting to delve into.


    #126779

    Watchman35
    Participant

    There has been a lot of discussions that I have read that talk about whether Matthew 24 is talking about the 2nd coming or the rapture. I don’t pretend to know but I do get confused trying to make it about the 2nd Coming. The Bible lays out the timeline of the 2nd Coming starting with the date of the Anti-Christ coming on the scene and then confirmed again giving the length of time for the first and second half of the tribulation. So if you start counting once the Anti-Christ comes on the scene, then even recount for assurance at the time of the desolation, you know when the 2nd coming is. What we DON’T know is, when the Anti-Christ comes on the scene. Whenever he does, we know that we will be gone before that time but can’t calculate when that will be because we don’t know.

    In addition to that… WE are Noah and his family. They were rescued from the flood just as we are rescued from the tribulation. They entered the ark just BEFORE the flood and we will be raptured just before the tribulation.
    ‘…people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, UP TO THE DAY NOAH ENTERED THE ARK…’

    All this ended when Noah entered the ark. I believe there will be business, eating drinking and marrying during the tribulation – people still have to eat and live right, but I think it will be anything but normal. Babylon will still be doing business – very evilly so but all normalcy will end at the rapture.

    Great thread Heather. Lots of good thoughts and reasoning’s in here and very interesting to delve into.

    Watchman Starts Here (sorry, originally posted inside of your comments)

    Have to respectfully disagree with you that we are Noah and his family. Seems much more likely to me we are Enoch, who was literally raptured before the flood and delivered FROM the flood, with Noah and his family being saved and delivered THROUGH the flood, just as the remnant of Israel who will be saved and delivered THROUGH the tribulation. We are much more a picture of Enoch than Noah.

    Again, context, context, context. This is a Jesus Messiah speaking to Jewish disciples about things of the Old Testament. The rapture is unknown to the disciples and is not revealed as a mystery until years later. I really believe He is talking about the second coming. May have to agree to disagree agreeable, as JD would say. :Hi:

    John 14:1-3 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

    #126784
    NoFear- JustFaith
    NoFear- JustFaith
    Participant

    Have to respectfully disagree with you that we are Noah and his family. Seems much more likely to me we are Enoch, who was literally raptured before the flood and delivered FROM the flood, with Noah and his family being saved and delivered THROUGH the flood, just as the remnant of Israel who will be saved and delivered THROUGH the tribulation. We are much more a picture of Enoch than Noah.

    That makes total sense – BTW – totally not disagreeing with anyone here – trying to glean information and understand. Still – how does it work that no on knows the day/hour of the 2nd coming when the day counts are actually laid out for us?


    #126785

    Watchman35
    Participant

    Have to respectfully disagree with you that we are Noah and his family. Seems much more likely to me we are Enoch, who was literally raptured before the flood and delivered FROM the flood, with Noah and his family being saved and delivered THROUGH the flood, just as the remnant of Israel who will be saved and delivered THROUGH the tribulation. We are much more a picture of Enoch than Noah.

    That makes total sense – BTW – totally not disagreeing with anyone here – trying to glean information and understand. Still – how does it work that no on knows the day/hour of the 2nd coming when the day counts are actually laid out for us?

    I wrestle with that same question and have not yet arrived at a satisfactory understanding that addresses that concern. One possible thought I had was that perhaps, without any direct reference to the rapture, the Lord was talking about no one knowing the day or the hour of when this collective period of time will begin (i.e., Daniel’s 70th week/aka the tribulation). We know that once it does begin, it will be observably marked by the confirming of the 7-year covenant and the revealing of the Antichrist. Yet, we cannot know the day or the hour that those events that mark the beginning of the 70th week will actually take place. When looking at it from that perspective, the Lord could still be talking about the 70th week and the second coming in Matthew 24, without referring to the rapture at all. Then, when the rapture is later revealed to Paul, the rapture could still fit as taking place just before the 70th week begins, while no one knows when that 70th week period of time will begin. Not anywhere near dogmatic on this, but, as you pointed out, I understand and wrestle with the same questions about knowing the day-count leading up to the second coming.

    John 14:1-3 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

    #126787
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Moderator

    There are a few places in scripture where people are told they don’t have need to know the day and the hour, but the text of Matthew 24:36 is still yet different than that.

    Here are a couple examples, and the context of the words and passages help us determine intent.

    I Thessalonians 5:1-5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

    This kind of goes hand-in-hand with the misinterpretation of the thief in the night in the context of the rapture. However, Paul writes this regarding the “day of the Lord” coming as a thief – to those in darkness. The church at Thessalonika wasn’t in darkness. They were children of the light. Therefore, the thief in the night doesn’t apply to them, nor does the day in view which sees Jesus coming as a thief: the Second Coming. We have to keep in mind Paul told them all about the rapture in the previous chapter. Therefore, they wouldn’t have had a need to know of the times – chronos: times leading up to – and seasons – kairos: the appointed time – of the day of the Lord. They would have been gone, had they been alive at the time of the rapture, caught up by it 7 years prior to the day of the Lord.

    Acts 1:6-7 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    In Acts 1, we see the disciples asking Jesus when He will deliver the Kingdom to Israel. Jesus replies it is not for them to know the times or the seasons of that event. It’s not that He was telling them it was unknowable. Rather, in this context, the word “know” carries the implication of experiencing it. They did not know at the time, rather expecting Him to return within their lifetime to deliver the Kingdom to Israel, that it would not occur for thousands of years. Thus, Jesus was imparting this information to them by telling them the deliverance of the Kingdom to Israel was not something they would see within their lifetimes.

    Matthew 24:34-36 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    Jesus also seemed to have spoken similar words to His disciple here in the Olivet Discourse. Except, the meaning here is entirely different. Once again, Jesus is not saying the day of the Lord is unknowable. He is saying no reference point exists for any being, mortal or immortal, because the day of the Lord which will see the perishing of the heavens and the earth by fire has never occurred in the history of the world. Thus, only God in His foreknowledge knows what that day will visibly look like. Of course, we also should understand Jesus in His humanity was not privy to everything. He certainly is now in His glorified form.

    We can further understand this is the meaning of the words “but of that day and hour knoweth no man”. It doesn’t say “no man knows the day or hour”. It says “regarding the events of the day and hour, no man knows”. Simple word movements impact intent and context of the verse bigly.

    “knoweth”
    G3609a – oida –
    to have seen or perceived, hence to know

    http://biblehub.com/greek/3609a.htm

    Thus, the object of what no man or angel, or even the Son in His humanity, had ever witnessed or visably perceived was stated in the verse which precedes – “heaven and earth shall pass away”.

    II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Nowhere in the Bible that I have come across does it say the timing of the Second Coming is unknowable. Rather, it’s the opposite since there is indeed a day count associated to the Week. Furthermore, it only says a certain group of people will not know when it will be since they won’t have the Spirit imparting said knowledge. They will be in darkness. But we have to keep in mind, those who are NOT in darkness are told to watch. They can and will know.

    Fair Use for Education & Discussion Purposes

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #126791
    NoFear- JustFaith
    NoFear- JustFaith
    Participant

    Awesome information! – I clicked the like button 🙂


    #126805

    2ndcoming
    Participant

    The son of man is the title given to Jesus in the book of Matthew, as opposed to being the Son of God in John. All relate to the Second Coming, except passages in John 14 and such which talk about a mystery which was still hidden. Even so, the days of Noah… Noah and his family entered the ark and stayed there for 7 days before God closed the door and the rains came. During that 7-day period, anyone else could have chosen to board the ark. But they didn’t. That’s like the the 7-year Trib. The ark door will be open to people aside from the remnant. But at the end of the 7 years, Jesus shuts the door on those who have not entered i.e. believed in the gospel, and fire burns up the earth and the works therein.

    “When the son of man is revealed” is always about the second coming and the Kingdom age.

    I am not sure how you arrive at the idea that when “Son of man” appears,it all relates to second coming. I have attached few verses below. Can you elaborate more based on the attached scripture?

    Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

    Luke 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

    Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

    Matthew 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

    #126806

    2ndcoming
    Participant

    Heather, I also have a question for you. In Matthew 24:28,when Jesus comes back like a lightning shine forth from east to west,there shall be dead body/corpses all over the world.

    Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    Carcase is Greek word ptoma which means corpse or dead body. But in Luke 17:37,when Son of man is revealed,there are no dead body but living body gathered together.

    Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    “Body” is Greek word soma which means flesh,living body. If “Son of man is revealed” relates to the second coming like you claimed,how do you justify the difference of the two different scenario (corpses and flesh) when Jesus returns?

    Like I have pointed before, Luke 17 gives the account of the event rapture,where two men in one bed,one shall be taken,the other shall be left. They (the flesh,living body in verse 37) shall be taken like the eagles gather together. Only through this distinction from second coming,we can preserve the context by not confusing ourselves with Jesus’s words.

    #126811
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Moderator

    2ndcoming, regarding your first post, I didn’t say when the phrase “the son of man” appears in the Bible, it relates to the Second Coming. I said the phrase “when the son of man is revealed” (from heaven) it’s a reference to the Second coming and kingdom age (not the rapture).

    Regarding your second post, I’ll have to look at Luke 17 before I can answer, but from the verses you posted, I see no reason why it would need to relate to the rapture.

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #126817
    Savedat33
    Savedat33
    Participant

    You know what I’ve always wondered?

    The Church is taken in the Rapture (pre-trib)… 7 years before.

    The day the last 7 years kicks off, the martyrs start dying. Approximately about the same time God sends a delusion that is so powerful it could (unless God had sealed them – i.e 144,000) they would believe it too.

    So, the ones that do believe are being killed and the rest of the world is starting to be smacked about with plagues of the most biblical kind…

    Is anyone (other than the 144,000k and the martyrs) actually going to be counting 2520 days? My guess? No.

    They did not care to look for the Lord during the Age of Grace… I doubt they will be looking for or longing for His return when He finally sets His feet upon the earth to judge the nations.

    Oh! And the antichrist will be here so I’m sure he’ll do his best to hide the information about the Lords return and will do his best to confuse the actual count of days…

    Just a thought. :whistle:

    #126818
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Moderator

    Here is the whole context of Luke 17:

    20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

    23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

    25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    32 Remember Lot’s wife.

    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    Yes, it relates to the Second Coming and not the rapture. The whole of the passage is about when the kingdom of God should come to earth. That does not happen at the rapture. I’m not quite sure why it matters that Matthew talks about dead bodies (of which we know there will be due to Armageddon and the valley of decision) and Luke talks about live bodies (of which we know there will be due to many people, mostly the remnant of Israel along with all the newly resurrected righteous and OT saints and martyrs, that will be entering the kingdom right alongside the already raptured and now-returning-with-Christ church). There is no conflict there.

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #126833

    2ndcoming
    Participant

    2ndcoming, regarding your first post, I didn’t say when the phrase “the son of man” appears in the Bible, it relates to the Second Coming. I said the phrase “when the son of man is revealed” (from heaven) it’s a reference to the Second coming and kingdom age (not the rapture).

    Regarding your second post, I’ll have to look at Luke 17 before I can answer, but from the verses you posted, I see no reason why it would need to relate to the rapture.

    We need to understand which kingdom Jesus was referring to when he answered Pharisee’s question.

    Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    The kingdom of God is not by observation. It can’t be physically observed. The only logic is this kingdom of God is not on this earth,but in third heaven where God and Jesus dwells.

    The following message Jesus given obviously relates to the event rapture, and how we can inherit this Kingdom of God through rapture when our body are changed into immortal body.

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