Can We Lose Our Salvation?

MAIN DISCUSSION FORUM Forums Jack Kelley Can We Lose Our Salvation?

This topic contains 28 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by Heather R Heather R 11 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #105262
    Loz
    Loz
    Participant

    Can We Lose Our Salvation?

    Q. Can you give me a little history about the Doctrine of losing salvation? When did it first appear in the church and who brought it out into the open? Thanks.

    A. Conditional salvation was popularized by the followers of Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch pastor and theologian in the late 16th and early 17th centuries who rejected the Calvinist views he had grown up with. It’s a complicated issue, but simply put Calvinists believe that God determines who will be saved, not man, and that being sovereign His decision is irreversible. Once saved always saved. It’s also called predestination or election.

    Arminius put forth the idea that the choice to be saved is man’s, not God’s, and is based on faith. But if he loses the faith to believe, he can lose his salvation. Since man can choose, he can also un-choose. Some call it agency or choice.

    Calvinists and Arminians share an advocacy of reformed theology differing primarily in this area. (Most of the main line denominations were built on the foundation of reformed theology.) Today, the debate over which view is correct continues mostly among evangelicals, some of whom have expanded Arminian doctrine to also include post-salvation sinfulness as a way to lose one’s salvation.

    Sadly, many involved in this debate fail to consider advancements in our understanding of the nature of time, which make each view correct in what it asserts and incorrect in what it denies. (Calvinists assert eternal security and deny man’s choice. Arminians assert choice but deny security.) We now know that time is a physical property affecting only physical beings. God being a Spirit is not confined to time. Neither Calvin nor Arminius understood this.

    The key passage on this issue is Romans 8:29-30 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

    God, being outside of time, sees the end from the beginning. Before He created Adam he knew everyone who was going to choose Him (He foreknew) and so He made a place for them in His Kingdom (He predestined). Somewhere in the life span of each person who will choose Him, He creates the circumstances for them to make their choice (He calls). When they respond, as He knows they will, He allows the blood of Jesus to wash them clean (He justifies) and at the appointed time He will grant them glorified bodies and welcome them to their place in His Kingdom reserved for them from the foundation of the world. (He glorifies)

    Did they make a free choice? Yes. Did He already know what their choice would be? Yes. Once you put God outside of time, there’s no conflict between choice and predestination. And as Romans 8 makes clear, there’s no fall out in this process. Everyone who is foreknown completes the cycle and ends up glorified.

    That’s because God’s relation to time also handles the post-salvation sin issue. Hebrews 10:12 says that Jesus was sacrificed once for all time. That means that His one act of sacrifice for sin covers all of man’s sins for all of time. That’s why the writer could continue by saying in verse 14 that by one sacrifice he has made us perfect for ever.

    There’s no such thing as a Christian who doesn’t continue to sin. But every sin that you ever have or ever will commit is covered by the blood of Jesus. From your first moment of belief you were saved, and God sealed His Holy Spirit within you as a deposit guaranteeing your inheritance (Ephes. 1:13-14).

    Can We Lose Our Salvation?

    “Fair Use For Education and Discussion Purposes”

    Loz :]

    Psalm 18:2
    The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.


    #105263
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Participant

    Awesome explanation! Thanks for posting, Loz. :rose:

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #105272

    mighty2save
    Participant

    Concerning this subject, I often think about the parable of the prodigal son and what Jesus was trying to teach us.

    At the end of the parable the Father tells the older brother that they had to celebrate and be glad because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again, he was lost and is found.

    So it seems the brother was dead spiritually (he wasn’t physically dead) when he left the fathers house and lived a sinful life. He was “alive again” when he repented and returned to the father.

    So according to what Jesus is teaching here, we can be “alive” in the Father, but when we leave and sin, we are dead spiritually. Only when we repent and return are we “alive again” to the Father.

    So it would seem on the surface that sin can separate us from God.

    At least that is how this parable seems to show.

    Interesting topic…

    #105273
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Participant

    Mighty2save,

    Being spiritually dead is the same as being unsaved. That’s the opposite of what this passage was teaching, that we can’t lose our salvation. Wandering away from the will of God is not the same as being spiritually dead. Rather, it’s just what it is… wandering outside the will of God. The rejoicing of the prodigal son wasn’t that he “became his father’s son again”, it was simply that he returned home.

    Likewise, we don’t “become our Father’s children again”. We still are. We just return home. To be saved is to be spiritually alive. One either is spiritually alive or they are spiritually dead. Once we receive Jesus as our Savior, we will never be spiritually dead again.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Once we receive Jesus as our Savior, the penalty of our sin has been removed. That penalty is spiritual death. Rather, we will, from that point forward, have the promise of eternal life, regardless of whether we stray or not. We can never stray too far. And we will always still be His children.

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #105274

    JohnC
    Participant

    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
    John 10:27‭-‬29 KJV

    If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
    1 Corinthians 16:22 KJV

    #105276

    mighty2save
    Participant

    Mighty2save,

    Being spiritually dead is the same as being unsaved. That’s the opposite of what this passage was teaching, that we can’t lose our salvation. Wandering away from the will of God is not the same as being spiritually dead. Rather, it’s just what it is… wandering outside the will of God. The rejoicing of the prodigal son wasn’t that he “became his father’s son again”, it was simply that he returned home.

    Likewise, we don’t “become our Father’s children again”. We still are. We just return home. To be saved is to be spiritually alive. One either is spiritually alive or they are spiritually dead. Once we receive Jesus as our Savior, we will never be spiritually dead again.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Once we receive Jesus as our Savior, the penalty of our sin has been removed. That penalty is spiritual death. Rather, we will, from that point forward, have the promise of eternal life, regardless of whether we stray or not. We can never stray too far. And we will always still be His children.

    I see what your saying, although I’m still not sure that is how I would look at it.

    You said “Being spiritually dead is the same as being unsaved.”

    So thinking logically, to be dead is to be unsaved and to be alive is to be saved.

    But if you look carefully the father says the son is alive “again”.

    So using that logic, the son was alive, or saved, when he was in the fathers house, then was “dead”, or unsaved, when through his own free will left and lived in sin. Then he was “alive” again, saved again, when he repented and returned to his fathers house.

    So if you just replace the words “alive” and “dead” with saved and unsaved you see how sin separates you from God, at least according to this parable.

    Alive…dead…alive again…

    Saved…unsaved…saved again…

    Could be wrong but that is how it seems to read…

    #105277
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Participant

    Perhaps I need to further clarify as I had not looked at the passage before I responded…

    The prodigal returned home to his father, still being his father’s son. This is not a “had salvation, lost salvation, got salvation again”. The rejoicing that he was alive “again” refers to having been physically alive, and now is spiritually alive.

    I was responding to your statement:

    So according to what Jesus is teaching here, we can be “alive” in the Father, but when we leave and sin, we are dead spiritually. Only when we repent and return are we “alive again” to the Father.

    No, we cannot be saved, then leave and live in sin and lose our salvation, only to return and gain it back. Your first statement was accurate:

    So it seems the brother was dead spiritually (he wasn’t physically dead) when he left the fathers house and lived a sinful life. He was “alive again” when he repented and returned to the father.

    Perhaps I should have responded to individual parts of your statements instead of trying to combine by responses. My apologies. There’s a literal “I am my father’s son”, and a spiritual “I am my Father’s son”. I did not clarify my meanings well.

    The point I was trying to make is that once we are made spiritually alive, we cannot lose that (once we are our Father’s child, we will never NOT be His child again). The implication in this specific parable (which is entirely separate from what I just stated) is that, until the son returned, he was spiritually dead. Once he did return and was repentant and was received and welcomed by his father, he became alive “again”.

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #105279

    Bsfc123
    Participant

    The original post answers the question being put forth.

    God is outside of time, therefore, He knows who has already responded to His call and who has not. Everyone who will respond is given the call. It is why Calvinism is a non issue. God foreknowing who will be saved is obvious, as he is not inside time and sees the end from the beginning. The ultimate question that comes from that line of thinking is…why create people who would jsut go to hell?

    Because the unsaved people would have children, grandchildren, etc, who WOULD be saved.

    So the parable is not saying that the son was going in and out of salvation, or that God did not know if the man would be saved. God always knows, always has and always will. Our walk will never be perfect, and if truth be told, that very same son could have strayed again later in life. And then later again. But if he is saved, he is always saved. If he has a bad few weeks and stops walking with God and then got kicked by a horse or something, he isn’t going to get to heaven and God will say, “well, you were pretty good, but your lack of faith this last few weeks really cost you, bud.” That would mean we are keeping ourseves in salvation, which is the opposite of what the Bible teaches. Works based salvation is the talking points of cults, as well as the Catholic Church.

    It is like the person who lived like a hellion for seventy years and then comes to a decision for Christ late in life. Was that person ever NOT saved? Nope. He was saved from the foundations of the earth and God always knew it. He didn’t step into that salvation until very late, but it was always assured.

    That is one big reason I try not to get into conversations where people say negative things about others or talk about how someone is lost. It makes me think….really? You know that, huh? LOL.

    Best we can do is to share the Gospel and love of Christ, knowing that God does the saving, and whomever is going to respond, will respond. I believe that is why we are told to share the Gospel, not because we are saving anyone, but because that person just might be a person who will respond….maybe not today, or tomorrow, but maybe the day before they die. And that is what God wants, for them to respond.

    We don’t keep ourselves saved. If we did, no man ever would get to be with God, because ALL of us have points where we question, fall away from our walk, go our own way. he will not allow any of us to be snatched from his hand. :yahoo:

    #105281
    CaptB
    CaptB
    Participant

    Luke 15:1-3
    Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
    So He told them this parable, saying,
    I don’t think this parable is about being saved or not, it’s about God’s attitude toward sinners, which is being compared to the Pharisees attitude toward sinners. I think Jesus is giving the Pharisees a chance to change their attitude, so that it is lined up with God’s.

    Only Visiting This Planet

    1 Peter 1:8
    "and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,"

    #105283

    mighty2save
    Participant

    Perhaps I need to further clarify as I had not looked at the passage before I responded…

    The prodigal returned home to his father, still being his father’s son. This is not a “had salvation, lost salvation, got salvation again”. The rejoicing that he was alive “again” refers to having been physically alive, and now is spiritually alive.

    I was responding to your statement:

    So according to what Jesus is teaching here, we can be “alive” in the Father, but when we leave and sin, we are dead spiritually. Only when we repent and return are we “alive again” to the Father.

    No, we cannot be saved, then leave and live in sin and lose our salvation, only to return and gain it back. Your first statement was accurate:

    So it seems the brother was dead spiritually (he wasn’t physically dead) when he left the fathers house and lived a sinful life. He was “alive again” when he repented and returned to the father.

    Perhaps I should have responded to individual parts of your statements instead of trying to combine by responses. My apologies. There’s a literal “I am my father’s son”, and a spiritual “I am my Father’s son”. I did not clarify my meanings well.

    The point I was trying to make is that once we are made spiritually alive, we cannot lose that (once we are our Father’s child, we will never NOT be His child again). The implication in this specific parable (which is entirely separate from what I just stated) is that, until the son returned, he was spiritually dead. Once he did return and was repentant and was received and welcomed by his father, he became alive “again”.

    When you say “once we are spiritually alive we cannot lose that” doesn’t St Peter say we can in second Peter?

    If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

    Peter says it is better for them if they had not known the way of righteousness then to have known it and returned to their sinful state. Someone who doesn’t know the way of salvation is already unsaved. Why would it be better to have not known it then to have known it then turned away?

    Doesn’t this parallel with the prodigal son parable? The son knew the way of righteousness then turned his back to it and lived a life of sin.

    Hypothetically, if the son came back to the fathers house unrepentant, just looking for some free food, would the father welcome him back or allow him to live like he did in the far country under his own roof?

    Just wondering…

    #105284
    CaptB
    CaptB
    Participant

    Heather, I think the son actually came back to the father’s house unrepentant. Notice the son’s rehearsed speech to the father: In Ex 10:16-17 Then Pharaoh hurriedly called for Moses and Aaron, and he said, “I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you. Now therefore, please forgive my sin only this once, and make supplication to the Lord your God, that He would only remove this death from me.” Every Jew listening to what Jesus was saying would recognize that being the “false repentance” of the Pharaoh . But Jesus is telling that parable to show the father’s heart, not so much the son’s.

    Only Visiting This Planet

    1 Peter 1:8
    "and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,"

    #105285

    JohnC
    Participant

    With all due respect, you are interpreting the passage wrong. It’s not talking about losing your salvation. The context of the passage is warnings against false teachers. I can go more into it when I get home tonight. But as of right now, start at verse 1 and read it straight through.

    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
    2 Peter 2:1 KJV

    Also, in this passage it’s clear that these aren’t genuine Christian’s. How can we know? You cannot be both a follower of Christ and deny Him. Denying Him, rejection, does not make you His.

    If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
    1 Corinthians 16:22 KJV

    #105286

    Bsfc123
    Participant

    I’m certain Heather will give a much better answer than I can, but again, this would mean that the person was never saved, and that the conversion was likely one of the mind and not of the heart, in other words, false. A person can understand intellectually that Christ existed, and understand that the path the Bible talks about is correct. But unless that person is born again, then it is just words.

    I believe that a huge part in that process is a person coming the real conclusion that they are a sinner and that they need to be saved, that they cannot save themselves. If a person reaches this state, they can be born again. If not, it may just be that they are looking for personal gain in Christ, which is the opposite of salvation.

    It reminds me of story I heard Kirk Cameron tell about a friend of his who came to church, said the prayer, then stopped going a few months later and never looked back. That person wanted to see what they could get out of Christianity, and when they got bored, they went on their way. There was no conversion. Now, that said, that person could still be saved, because maybe they will be born again at some point. Only God knows.

    What this scenario really proves is, God calls, and some will respond in humility, see that they are a sinner, and place their faith in Him. They will still sin and do wrong, but the process of sanctification can be life long, and they will be convicted of their sin and called to repent. Some will hear the call and instead of humilitt and a sense of how sinful they are, they will say….I wonder if this Jesus thing will make my life better? And they will not convert or respond, and they will not place their faith in Christ, they place their faith in the idea of making their life better.

    Two very different things. i believe this is why the Bible teaches to work out our salvation with great trembling….because we alone know if we are trusting in Christ, and we alone know if we are just acting. Oddly, those doing works in an effort to STAY saved would be the ones acting. Those doing works because they love others and love Christ are those trusting in Him.

    #105287
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Participant

    Okay, sorry for responding earlier before I had a chance to read the chapter. I shouldn’t have done that because my answers were confusing. I hope my second post cleared that up. As to the posts above, I’m confused. There are two different parables being spoken of here… the first is Luke 15:1-10 and talks about Jesus teaching publicans and sinners. The Pharisees thought Him in the wrong for being around or involved with these people, as they were seen as lower-class citizens. Jesus attempted to teach the Pharisees that the shepherd tends to ALL of the sheep and rejoices when the lost is/are found.

    Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

    The second parable is that of the prodigal son which teaches the same lesson a different way. That is that Jesus will accept anyone who comes to him, with open arms, at any time. And yes, the prodigal was truly repentant.

    Luke 15:18-19 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

    It is often in the most dire circumstances that people reach out for the Father’s help, just as this prodigal son did. And before he had even reached his father’s house, his father rushed out to receive him and welcomes him warmly, just as the Father does when one comes to Him through Jesus Christ.

    The one who was angry was the brother who had done nothing wrong, like the prodigal had, and didn’t like the fuss that was being made over him. That is the Pharisaical attitude, as in the first parable of the chapter, not understanding why Jesus (or in this case, the Father) wants anything to do with a sinner.

    Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

    As much as I was thinking of the prodigal son parable in two contexts, which is why I was confusing the issue, what’s being referenced here has nothing to do with losing salvation but only gaining it for the first time.

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #105288

    mighty2save
    Participant

    With all due respect, you are interpreting the passage wrong. It’s not talking about losing your salvation. The context of the passage is warnings against false teachers. I can go more into it when I get home tonight. But as of right now, start at verse 1 and read it straight through.

    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
    2 Peter 2:1 KJV

    Also, in this passage it’s clear that these aren’t genuine Christian’s. How can we know? You cannot be both a follower of Christ and deny Him. Denying Him, rejection, does not make you His.

    When you say “with all due respect your interpretation is wrong”, isn’t that opening up a Pandora’s box when it comes to Christians interpreting scripture? Is that why we have so many denominations with differing beliefs?

    When you say such and such a person is not interpreting scripture correctly and I am, doesn’t that set you up as some sort of authority?

    But anyway, I will read 2 Peter in it’s entirety but I still don’t see how a believers free will couldn’t jeopardize their security. God honors free will and I’m sure would allow a person to reject Him even after being a believer.

    I think Paul is crystal clear in Romans chapter eleven 19-23 when he clearly teaches that one can be cut off from the vine … If …one does not remain in His kindness. I can’t imagine anyone could still be saved being cut off from God. Paul’s vine and branches metaphor is very easy to understand.

    Anyway, really good debate…

    #105289
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Participant

    mighty2save, this thread is consistent with our beliefs here at RITAN and is edifying and encouraging. However, the issue Jack Kelley was referring to, the issue of eternal security, is not up for debate.

    This is part of RITAN’s Statement of Faith:

    ~ SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER ~

    We believe in the eternal security of every true believer who is sealed by the Holy Spirit under the terms of the New Covenant. We believe Jesus is the true Vine in which we abide and the Author and Perfecter of our faith, who will complete the good work begun in us. (1 Thessalonians 5:24; 2 Thessalonians 3:3; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 12:2; Romans 8:1-2; Romans 8:31-39; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Eph. 1:13-14; Eph. 2:8-9; Philippians 1:6; Jude 24; John 6:39; John 10:28; John 17:6-12; 1 Peter 1:3-4)

    Eternal Security will not be debated here. I guess I didn’t understand clearly that’s what you were doing and was under the impression you were just asking questions for clarification. Since that’s not the case, I’ll kindly ask you to stop posting regarding the possibility of losing salvation. It is inconsistent with our goals and beliefs here and is harmful to other believers. If you’d like to discuss further, emailing the mods is always an option. The main forum is not.

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #105290

    Bsfc123
    Participant

    It really is an interesting debate. My opinion is really that God knows who is saved, and that placing our faith in Him is all that is required of us, and out of that faith comes whatever works or good things we do. I have heard the issue argued so many times.

    I suppose that is why Christianity is a person, Jesus Christ, and not a “religion”, or a belief system. It is that relationship with Him that allows for salvation and being born again.

    I heard someone argue once that when He is talking about telling the people that said they did great works in His name to get away because He never knew them, they implied that it meant that they had lost their salvation. But notice He said, “I NEVER knew you”, plainly stating that the people saying that had never been in a relationship with Christ.

    I think it can be a scary issue, because if you look at Muslims, they believe that Allah is unknowable and they have no idea if they are saved, they truly have no idea where they stand.

    But the truth is, I really believe that a person asking the question, “Am I really saved?”, likely is or is on the way to being saved, as asking that question shows that a person is being convicted of sin and is working it out. Odd how that works to me.

    #105291

    mighty2save
    Participant

    mighty2save, this thread is consistent with our beliefs here at RITAN and is edifying and encouraging. However, the issue Jack Kelley was referring to, the issue of eternal security, is <span class=”d4pbbc-underline” style=”text-decoration: underline;”>not</span> up for debate.

    This is part of RITAN’s Statement of Faith:

    ~ SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER ~

    We believe in the eternal security of every true believer who is sealed by the Holy Spirit under the terms of the New Covenant. We believe Jesus is the true Vine in which we abide and the Author and Perfecter of our faith, who will complete the good work begun in us. (1 Thessalonians 5:24; 2 Thessalonians 3:3; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 12:2; Romans 8:1-2; Romans 8:31-39; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Eph. 1:13-14; Eph. 2:8-9; Philippians 1:6; Jude 24; John 6:39; John 10:28; John 17:6-12; 1 Peter 1:3-4)

    Eternal Security will not be debated here. I guess I didn’t understand clearly that’s what you were doing and was under the impression you were just asking questions for clarification. Since that’s not the case, I’ll kindly ask you to stop posting regarding the possibility of losing salvation. It is inconsistent with our goals and beliefs here and is harmful to other believers. If you’d like to discuss further, emailing the mods is always an option. The main forum is not.

    Not a problem…

    :good: :Hi:

    #105293
    Tom
    Tom
    Keymaster

    Those of us who have been on RITAN since the beginning know that this topic has been thoroughly discussed many times before. In our archives are many good articles on this subject for anyone who wants to search.

    The bottom line is that Christianity is a relationship not a religion of do’s and don’ts. It would appear that God’s Prime Directive is to have a relationship with His greatest creation.

    Since Gods Holy Word is clear that God sealed each true believer with His Holy Spirit, it should be very apparent that true believers BELONG to HIM and not themselves. He is the only one that is able to break that seal of ownership and that is why it also says that He will never lose any.

    The reason most people struggle with this issue is they do not feel it is right that someone can commit an unrighteous act and get away with it. That is because they are mixing two different principles and standards.

    The standard of Salvation from the PENALTY of sin is what we call being saved/born again. It is a one time event in a persons life and has an eternal consequence as guaranteed by Christ Jesus Himself.

    The standard for temporal consequences for sin is a different issue. There is always a physical/emotional/financial/relational/ or legal consequence for sin for all those that are and are not truly saved from the penalty of sin. God must protect righteousness by judging unrighteousness. If you break the law, you must pay the penalty. If you lay in the sun too long without protection you will burn. If you drink and drive you may have tragic consequences. If you are not friendly, you will not have fiends. God has built into His creation a natural consequence for doing wrong and also for doing those things that are righteous. However, we should not mix those outcomes with the doctrine of Salvation from the penalty of sin.

    If you are interested here is a very interesting article I wrote on RITA many years ago. It was titled Who’s Your Daddy?

    Over the years of my Christian walk, I have been asked many times “Can I lose my salvation?” . When I have prayed and ask for a clear answer, the Holy Spirit has always lead me to the story of the Good Shepherd and His sheep. Compare the stories from Mt. 18:11-14, Luke 15:4-7 and John 10:1-18.

    It is clear to see that the shepherd goes after all the sheep that BELONG to him because they are of HIS sheepfold.(a picture of the kingdom of Heaven) While its true the wayward sheep repents, it is clear that the repentance is NOT because he doesn’t belong to the shepherd but because he was wayward (broke fellowship) with the shepherd.

    Who’s Your Daddy?

    The other picture He has shown me over the last five years or so is from John 3 where Nicodemus was told that he would have to be BORN AGAIN to enter the Kingdom of God. Nicodemus knew it was impossible to be physically born again, so he questioned Jesus as to how could such a thing happen. Jesus answered and made it clear the the NEW BIRTH would have to be a spiritual one. In this simple answer Christ was saying that in order to enter Gods family, we would have to have the right spiritual DNA. The DNA that you and I have as human beings determines that we are indeed human beings, and that can NEVER be changed. Likewise, once we have received the
    Spiritual DNA at the time of our salvation as we are spiritually baptized into Jesus Christ, we can NEVER belong to any other family. It is impossible!!

    (As a side note, if you go to http://www.jewsandjoes.com and click on dna,,you will find that all the peoples on earth can be traced back to four points on the earth. 2 in Africa, the large red and blue dots, and two in the middle east, the large green and blue dots. Even though the dating in time is questionable, it is clear to me that the 4 dots represent Noah, Ham, Shem and Japheth.)

    Isn’t it just like our awesome God to place the redemptive analogy of DNA into the basic fabric of His creation. And, that it would only be found and understood at the end of the age of Grace? That is why so many microbiologist are being saved. They see the message and believe.

    What a mighty God we serve

    Tom



    Gods plan and purpose for my life is never at risk. Phil 1:6

    #105294

    JohnC
    Participant

    I’m not sure why it’s not letting me use the “quote” option to respond but I apologize, I didn’t mean you were interpreting scripture wrong. I meant to say you were taking verses out of context. Again, I’m not attacking you. I am responding in love.

    Scripture interprets itself. I always feel uneasy when someone says “this is how I interpret scripture.”

    Accepting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord is the only thing we need to do to obtain the free gift of Salvation. However, the missing piece is repentance. The two thieves on the cross both insulted Jesus but only one repented. Jesus told the thief that repented that he would be with Him. You cannot say a thirty second pray and go about your life as you did. That’s not a genuine conversion. It’s not about doing stuff though, just repent and place your trust and faith in Jesus.

    A true Christian changes the way they think. Christ just isn’t a part of our lives, He is our life. It’s not works based. He has to be Lord. We might not necessarily be able to tell who are genuine believers, but those that are genuine are the truly saved. Jesus tells us that not all that call Him Lord will enter the Kingdom. The Bible tells us to examine ourselves.

    Once you submit yourself to Christ, that doesn’t mean you stop sinning. You don’t. That’s why Jesus died for all a believer’s sins, past, present, and future. There is no sin too big to make you lose your salvation. Jesus took care of it all! However, the only unpardonable sin is unbelief in Jesus.

    If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
    1 Corinthians 16:22 KJV

    #105300
    TxThom
    TxThom
    Keymaster

    I’ve actually been thinking of the prodigal son story lately and wondering if it did in fact suggest a loss of salvation. An uncomfortable consideration to be sure, but it was given prior to the Age of Grace, so deserved a closer look which this topic encouraged.

    There are two connotations for “dead” which works for the prodigal. The first is that the prodigal son was the dear departed one, physically, but had returned. The other connotation is that the prodigal had become separated from the Father and “apart from Him you can do nothing”. He had become nonfunctional, dead his ability to perform any worthwhile spiritual work. Either of those approaches works for me scripturally, and matches the rest of the scripture adequate for my comfort.

    Regarding the once saved concept, Jack had a great compendium on that – https://gracethrufaith.com/free/ebooks/ebook-osas-anthology/

    The big thing for me is that we are not our own, we were bought with a price. We had the free will to accept Him as Savior, but when we accepted the price He paid for us He became our Master. We can’t possibly repay what He paid, so we remain His. Even if we work for the “other guy” for a time.

    I am convinced of this, that the One who began a good action among you will bring it to completion by the Day of the Messiah Jesus. Philippians 1:6



    #105315
    Black Prince
    Black Prince
    Participant

    I went all out in searching for the truth on this topic. This has really bothered me in the past and I was not satisfied with a 99.99% answer. I wanted the absolute answer.

    I won’t go into details on my search for the answer. To cut it short the answer is: you cannot lose your salvation. We don’t need to search outside the Bible – everything is in there.

    I’ve actually been thinking of the prodigal son story lately and wondering if it did in fact suggest a loss of salvation.

    It does not. I believe it is the story about Israel. I believe Israel is the prodigal son while the Church is the brother who did not leave the Father. God will prepare a great banquet for Israel once he, or rather she, comes to her senses and decides to go back to the Lord – decides to believe in Christ Jesus. The Church never left Christ. 🙂

    #105325
    shrimp
    shrimp
    Participant

    Hey all! I think it was AW Pink that had a good interpretation of Prodigal Son. He was noting that in the first part of Luke 15 it started with the Pharisees grumbling about Jesus seeking sinners. Then you have 2 parables about the lost and the joy in finding them. Then the climax is the prodigal son story where the older brother a type of the Pharisee is not at all concerned about the lost situation of the younger brother. Just like how they were not concerned about the lost sinners Jesus was dining with. The older brother and the pharisees should have been rejoicing that the lost sinner is found but instead they are repulsed. I love how there can be many different layers and meaning within each parable.

    #105329
    Black Prince
    Black Prince
    Participant

    I never really saw any connection with the Prodigal Son story and salvation. It doesn’t fit. Also Christ Jesus was against the teachings of the Pharisees because they failed to see the true purpose of the Mosaic law which David understood. They cannot be the older brother in the story – rather they fit the prodigal son’s description. But the Church…

    Every saint is part of the Church and everyone who is part of the Church is already in God’s fold. Remember God no longer sees or remembers our sins – past, present, future. Also remember that all that God has is ours and all that we have is God’s. We are heirs and, in a way, we never left God in the first place (it is not possible to be saved-again) hence the older brother fits the description of the Church better than the Pharisees who didn’t even, and still doesn’t, recognise Jesus as the Son of God.

    But there is one scary truth – you can deceive or lie to yourself. You can say to yourself you believe in God or you can tell the whole world that you believe and trust in him. But do you really trust in him? Do you really understand what he has done for you – do you understand the heights and depths of his love? You can say you are saved… but you were never saved in the first place. You never really lost your salvation, you never had it in the first place.

    #105332
    Tender Reed
    Tender Reed
    Participant

    I might add. God keeps books. Books with names. Seems to me that God is proactive. He proactively offers us all the opportunity to enter into a divine romance with Him, this is why we all were created. He is proactive in His heart, that He would none would perish. He is proactive when our names are first entered into the Book of life, only to be blotted out when we fail to “come back” to Him!

    Theoology, understanding and wisdom is wonderful, but I’ll take the heart of God, any day!

    TR


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