A Defense Of The Revelation 12 Sign And Its Connection To The Rapture

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  • #128460
    amessenger4god
    amessenger4god
    Participant

    I previously addressed four arguments that some have used to dismiss the significance of the Revelation 12 Sign on September 23rd, 2017.  That article is well worth reading, so that you can be informed about the subject.  There are two other arguments that need to be addressed in addition to those four:

    1. The woman is not “clothed” with the Sun on September 23rd, 2017.

    Several people have pointed out that the disc of the Sun rests on the shoulder of Virgo rather than over her midsection.  This is evidence, they say, that the woman is not clothed with the Sun.  As far as the astronomical alignment is concerned, this is the only point that can withstand any scrutiny, but it doesn’t ultimately hold water for several reasons:

    First, from the perspective of an earth-based observer, the Sun itself is significantly smaller than the constellation Virgo and so regardless of where the Sun is positioned, the woman could never be fully clothed with the Sun if the disc itself is in view in Revelation 12:1.  Even if the disc rested over Virgo’s midsection, it would only cover a small portion of her torso.  On September 23rd, 2017, the Sun clothes the woman’s shoulder, which in my opinion is just as significant as any other part of her body.  You can see the vast difference in apparent size between the constellation Virgo and the Sun below, and why its location within the constellation makes no difference:

    Second, the Greek word for “Sun” in Revelation 12:1 is ἥλιον, transliterated hēlion, which is Strong’s 2246hélios.  The word can carry several meanings: the Sun, the rays of the sun, sunlight, and daylight.  Ancient Greek didn’t have different words for these four meanings as we do in English, so hélios carries other connotations beyond just the literal meaning of “Sun”.  The use of the word in the Septuagint with its definite article in 2 Samuel 12:11 is perhaps a good example of this where the idea is “broad daylight” – τοῦ ἡλίου.  The Revelation 12 Sign not only appears in its fullness over Israel during the day on September 23rd, but because the Sun is in the area of the constellation, the woman appears fully “clothed” in the Sun’s rays.

    Third, and lastly, arguing that the disc of the Sun doesn’t “clothe” the woman is an impossible standard.  Virgo is the only constellation in the biblical Mazzaroth that represents a woman and out of 88 constellations in the sky, one of only three that represent women.  Of those three, it is the only one that the Sun moves through – hence Virgo being part of the Mazzaroth – the twelve constellations that lie along the Sun’s ecliptic.  For this reason, if John’s vision was of a literal sign in the sky (which is what the text in Revelation 12:1 plainly says), Virgo is the only possible constellation in the entire sky that could symbolize the woman.  The Sun’s ecliptic is exactly the same every year and the only time the Sun ever enters the torso of Virgo is when it passes just behind the angle formed by Spica as seen below:

    The image above shows the deepest possible point in the constellation that the Sun traverses (the red line is the Sun’s unchanging path every year).  The Sun will never hover over Virgo’s neck or chest, or be centered anywhere in the quadrangle of the constellation’s womb, nor will it ever cover her legs, so “clothed with the Sun” must simply mean that the Sun is passing through the constellation as it does every Fall for a little over one and a half months.  You can test this yourself using any astronomy software – whether you choose 3000 BC or 3000 AD makes no difference.  It is interesting to note that if you bisect Virgo into two equal parts, the Sun’s position on September 23rd, 2017 is about as close as the Sun ever gets to being perfectly centered over the constellation.  “Clothed in the Sun” probably also draws on the connotations mentioned in the second point above, which is that the woman is clothed in sunlight or the rays of the Sun.

    In September 2017 we see a perfect match with John’s prophecy.

    2. The male child of Revelation 12:5 is Jesus, not the corporate Church.

    Many watchers are making the connection between the Revelation 12 Sign and the rapture based on the male child’s possible corporate identity as the Body of Christ – the Church.  A number of detractors dismiss this possibility, but in my opinion the evidence is simply too powerful to ignore and even if the astronomical alignment on September 23rd is not the Revelation 12 Sign, I would still argue that the man-child in Revelation 12:5 is meant to represent the Church in union with Christ.  Here are the reasons:

    First, it is repeated ad infinitum by detractors that the Church is the bride of Christ and thus the man-child cannot represent the Church.  This is a very exegetically weak argument for several reasons.

    For starters, the Church is called a man in Ephesians 2:15.  There are a number of metaphors for the Church in Scripture besides a bride.  The most common is actually Christ’s body (e.g. 1 Corinthians 10:16-17, 12:12-13, 25-27; Romans 12:4-5; Colossians 1:18, 24, 2:19, 3:15; Ephesians 4:4, 11-13).  And what might come as a shock to some, the Church is never explicitly identified as the bride of Christ.  The closest you can come to that analogy is in 2 Corinthians 11:2 and Ephesians 5:22-24.  In the Ephesians passage the Church is likened to a bride in that that the Church is subject to Christ who is the head, but the Church is not said to actually be the bride.  The only explicit reference to Christ’s bride is found in Revelation 21:2, 9-10.  The bride is the city of New Jerusalem, which is revealed after the millennial reign of Christ.  New Jerusalem has characteristics from both Israel and the Church, with gates named after the sons of Jacob (men who died long before Christ’s first advent), and foundations named after the Twelve Apostles.  Zion, which is a prophetic term for heavenly Jerusalem, is likened to a woman in labor in Isaiah 66:8, so in a certain sense it is really Zion, the mother of all the saints both pre- and post-Christ, that is the wife of the Lamb.  We need to remember that bride is just one analogy of many for the Church, just as body is.  The Church is just as often compared to a temple (1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:5).

    Second, the Apostle John makes a grammatical error in Revelation 12:5 when he modifies the masculine huios (son) with the neuter word arsen.  If you believe that God’s Word is infallible, then you’re only left with one option: John made this mistake intentionally.  And sure enough, his use of arsen appears to come directly from the Septuagint version of Isaiah 66:7-8 where we see the same imagery of a woman in labor with a male child.  Isaiah 66:8 gives the male child an unmistakable corporate identity – he is a nation born in a single day.  1 Peter 2:9 says the Church is a holy nation.

    Third, Revelation 12:5 says that the male child “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter”.  This is an important clue.  There is no question that this phrase relates to Christ as can be seen in Psalm 2:9 and Revelation 19:14-15.  However, Revelation 2:26-27 unmistakably gives the promise to “rule with an iron scepter” to the Church, as well.  There is no way to get around verse 27 – Christ, in union with His Church, will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

    Fourth, the corporate identity of the male child preserves the symbolic pattern of Revelation 12: the woman is Mary and Israel, the dragon is satan and his kingdom, and the child is Christ and His Church.

    Fifth, the use of harpazó in Revelation 12:5 is a huge clue.  Harpazó is the same word used for “rapture” or “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and means a sudden removal by force.  Jesus’ ascension was never once described using this word and in fact the Apostle John himself (the author of Revelation) calls Jesus’ ascension anabainó in John 20:17 – meaning to go up, ascend, or rise.  When Jesus ascended to Heaven He had already conquered death and sin.  He was in absolutely no danger from anyone.  The Bible says He left not to escape satan, but because it was beneficial for the Church (John 16:7).  There is simply no way to reconcile the context of Revelation 12:5, which is a sudden snatching away by force from the imminent danger of the dragon, with Jesus’ ascension.

    Sixth, Revelation 12 is significantly placed right in the middle of the book and is an interlude presenting a broad overview of Christ’s first coming all the way up to the end of the Tribulation: Christ’s birth, the gestation and birth of the Church, the war in Heaven, the rise of antichrist’s kingdom (seven heads and ten horns), Israel being pursued by the dragon during the first-half of the Tribulation (Revelation 12:13), Israel being miraculously protected by God for the last-half of the Tribulation (Revelation 12:14), and even satan’s pursuit of the Tribulation Saints once he realizes he can’t touch the divinely protected Jews (Revelation 12:17).

    Seventh, I firmly believe that the early Church was dispensational, premillennial, and pretribulational.  However, with the rise of Augustinianism, the Church went through a 1,400-year hiatus where prophecy tended to be mistrusted and allegorized.  The founders of modern dispensationalism who re-popularized the pre-trib rapture such as Darby and Ironside found Revelation 12:5 to actually be the chief proof-text of the pretribulational rapture of the Church.  By the early 1900s, this proof-text was largely forgotten by pre-trib proponents and arguments in favor relied primarily on secondary evidence, which led to the rise of mid-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib views in the Evangelical churches.  I find it fascinating that around the same time the Revelation 12 Sign was first spotted using astronomy software (sometime in 2011 or 2012), a number of scholars, such as Michael Svigel, re-discovered the use of Revelation 12:5 as the chief pre-trib proof-text.  The timing is impeccable.

    Source: http://www.unsealed.org/2017/02/a-defense-of-revelation-12-sign-and-its.html

    You lived the life I could never live,

    You died the death that I deserve,

    You rose to life and now You live,

    That's how You forgive!

    #128461
    Lavoietheway
    Lavoietheway
    Participant

    As watchers, we would do well to pay attention to this astronomical configuration in September. The blood moons on feast days have drawn our attention to the sky, and if we keep looking up, we just might witness Scriptures being fulfilled.

    #128464
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Moderator

    I’m sorry, but I can’t let #2 go without saying my piece… Revelation 12:5 IS Jesus and not the corporate church. The logic behind that defense is faulty and so very taken out of context it’s not even funny. That’s why a lot of people have an issue with this sign in the first place… you have to either have a misunderstanding of Scripture to draw these conclusions or you have to purposefully take it out of context. Since I don’t believe any of it is malicious, I’ll defer to the former. Isaiah 66 has absolutely no bearing on this sign, whatsoever.

    Yes, God gave us the sun and moon for signs and seasons and days and years. But this is another thing that’s so very taken out of context. In Luke 21, when Jesus was talking about people seeing signs and looking up, He was talking to the Jews and their salvation. In the context of that chapter, there may be two events in view: them leaving to escape the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD or the end of the Tribulation. At no point does it regard the church or the rapture.

    I don’t mean to be harsh, but……………….. argh.

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #128465
    amessenger4god
    amessenger4god
    Participant

    you have to either have a misunderstanding of Scripture to draw these conclusions or you have to purposefully take it out of context. Since I don’t believe any of it is malicious, I’ll defer to the former.

    Sister in Christ, I don’t think that’s fair of you. Consider the possibility that you might be mistaken and through a deeper study of God’s Word you might at some point come to a better understanding. A little humility can go a long way: “Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” – Colossians 4:6 and “Wisdom’s instruction is to fear the Lord, and humility comes before honor.” – Proverbs 15:33

    Consider also that men who deeply loved God’s Word and spent a much, much longer time studying it than you and I combined found the points in #2 above to be convincing: John Darby, Edward Irving, Michael Baxter, Harry Ironside, William Kelly, Richard Chester, Michael Svigel, and others.

    The logic behind that defense is faulty and so very taken out of context it’s not even funny.

    I disagree. I think the evidence presented above speaks for itself. It’s pretty powerful, convincing, and Scriptural if you ask me, which is why I’m sharing it. But hey – I could be mistaken, just as you might be. I think we both just want to be as true to God’s Word as we can be, but on this point we currently differ and that’s ok.

    You lived the life I could never live,

    You died the death that I deserve,

    You rose to life and now You live,

    That's how You forgive!

    #128467
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Moderator

    Sister in Christ, I don’t think that’s fair of you

    The statement wasn’t directed at you. This is someone else’s theory that you’re simply promoting. It’s been posted about several times, and refutations have been given. But here is a point by point:

    Many watchers are making the connection between the Revelation 12 Sign and the rapture based on the male child’s possible corporate identity as the Body of Christ – the Church.

    To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, this stems largely from one source. Others are promoting it, but the primary research that’s being quoted is not theirs.

    In the Ephesians passage the Church is likened to a bride in that that the Church is subject to Christ who is the head, but the Church is not said to actually be the bride.

    This is not correct.

    If and since Jesus is the bridegroom, it follows anyone from the church age who believes in Jesus is the bride.

    John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

    Zion, which is a prophetic term for heavenly Jerusalem, is likened to a woman in labor in Isaiah 66:8, so in a certain sense it is really Zion, the mother of all the saints both pre- and post-Christ, that is the wife of the Lamb. Second, the Apostle John makes a grammatical error in Revelation 12:5 when he modifies the masculine huios (son) with the neuter word arsen. If you believe that God’s Word is infallible, then you’re only left with one option: John made this mistake intentionally. And sure enough, his use of arsen appears to come directly from the Septuagint version of Isaiah 66:7-8 where we see the same imagery of a woman in labor with a male child. Isaiah 66:8 gives the male child an unmistakable corporate identity – he is a nation born in a single day. 1 Peter 2:9 says the Church is a holy nation.

    This could only be strictly true if there was no earthly Zion. However, there is. A nation being born in a day refers to the land of Israel and the regathering of the people to it, as referenced in Ezekiel 36-37. It regards Ezekiel’s “dry bones” prophecy. That is quite literal.

    The mention of the church as a holy nation has a spiritual connotation, as you indicated with us being referenced as the temple of God. Further in I Peter is the reference to the church offering spiritual sacrifices, which is our earthly priestly duty. As Revelation 5 says, He hath made us unto our God kings and priests. That Zion which brought forth children is a holy nation refers to the Mosaic Covenant made between God and the children of Israel in Exodus 19. It’s also a reference to the Abrahamic Covenant and the children of Israel being special to God. This is further represented by the crown of 12 starts which represent the 12 Tribes of Israel. The inclusion of the sun and the moon, along with the 12 stars, refers to Joseph’s dream of the sun and moon and 11 stars bowing to him. That would be a reference to his mother, father, and brothers. It’s all related to Israel.

    Third, Revelation 12:5 says that the male child “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter”. This is an important clue. There is no question that this phrase relates to Christ as can be seen in Psalm 2:9 and Revelation 19:14-15. However, Revelation 2:26-27 unmistakably gives the promise to “rule with an iron scepter” to the Church, as well. There is no way to get around verse 27 – Christ, in union with His Church, will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

    This promise also lends to Revelation 5, as well as to Revelation 20 with the resurrection of the martyrs, that the church and other saints will rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years. The church does not rule independently of Christ, but rather because we are co-heirs with Him, as Romans 8 states. Since the Revelation 12 sign does not regard the Millennial Kingdom, it also cannot regard the church because the promise only extends for the church to rule with Christ in the Millennial Kingdom, not beforehand. Thus, the text does not yet apply.

    Fourth, the corporate identity of the male child preserves the symbolic pattern of Revelation 12: the woman is Mary and Israel, the dragon is satan and his kingdom, and the child is Christ and His Church.

    This assumes all figures mentioned must have a corporate identity. Since the rest of the text relates to Israel, it is a supposition that the church must be related, not a given.

    Fifth, the use of harpazó in Revelation 12:5 is a huge clue. Harpazó is the same word used for “rapture” or “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and means a sudden removal by force. Jesus’ ascension was never once described using this word and in fact the Apostle John himself (the author of Revelation) calls Jesus’ ascension anabainó in John 20:17 – meaning to go up, ascend, or rise. When Jesus ascended to Heaven He had already conquered death and sin. He was in absolutely no danger from anyone. The Bible says He left not to escape satan, but because it was beneficial for the Church (John 16:7). There is simply no way to reconcile the context of Revelation 12:5, which is a sudden snatching away by force from the imminent danger of the dragon, with Jesus’ ascension.

    The word harpazo is not found only in those two scriptures. It is used 14 times in the text of the NT, and no other references relate directly to the church, except for I Thess 4. Thus, it is also not a given that the use of the word in Revelation 12 must relate to the church.

    Sixth, Revelation 12 is significantly placed right in the middle of the book and is an interlude presenting a broad overview of Christ’s first coming all the way up to the end of the Tribulation: Christ’s birth, the gestation and birth of the Church, the war in Heaven, the rise of antichrist’s kingdom (seven heads and ten horns), Israel being pursued by the dragon during the first-half of the Tribulation (Revelation 12:13), Israel being miraculously protected by God for the last-half of the Tribulation (Revelation 12:14), and even satan’s pursuit of the Tribulation Saints once he realizes he can’t touch the divinely protected Jews (Revelation 12:17).

    The church is not “gestating”. We are awaiting the day of redemption wherein we receive our glorified bodies. However, being born again is not a corporate idea. It is an individual idea, and it occurs when each person believes in Jesus and is saved by grace through faith. Glorification is corporate, because the rapture is corporate. We have been begotten again unto a lively hope (I Peter 1:3). It’s already a done deal. This also presupposes a different timing of the war in heaven than is actually presented in the text of the chapter.

    I can’t and won’t comment on what other people have used this text to support their position, because I don’t know any of the names you listed with the exception of Darby.

    My response wasn’t about pride vs. humility. It was about the supporting scriptures for this idea not being presented in context. If someone can do that regarding this idea, I’d possibly be more inclined to listen. If it winds up working out that way, great. But from my own research, this date is a bit too far down the line.

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #128468

    Readyornot
    Participant

    Heather, do you think the Revelation 12 sign has any significance at all, and if so what? I was very sceptical of the blood moons/shemitah etc and it seems nothing came of them either. The problem with these kinds of things is that they are very vague and open to interpretation as to what they actually mean.

    #128469

    Mike Mc
    Participant

    To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, this stems largely from one source. Others are promoting it, but the primary research that’s being quoted is not theirs.

    Mark Biltz is the pastor of El Shaddai Ministries in Tacoma, Washington, a Hebrew Roots congregation. Mark is known for his 2008 theory on the four blood moons, and this led to the finding of the Rev 12 Sign on the Stellarium program that is a free open source planetarium for your computer.

    Michael Svigel
    Pre-Tribulational Rapture: An Interview with Michael Svigel

    December 9, 2013 · by Lindsay · in Eschatology, Interviews, Theology

    This is the third of three interviews on different perspectives on the rapture. In this post Michael Svigel from Dallas Theological Seminary is representing the pre-tribulational rapture view.

    Pre-Tribulational Rapture: An Interview with Michael Svigel

    This is the man I learned about The Pre Trib Rapture more than 30 years ago now…And My old Pastor who was also Pre Trib..
    John F. Walvoord was a Christian theologian, pastor, and president of Dallas Theological Seminary from 1952 to 1986. He was the author of over 30 books, focusing primarily on eschatology and theology including The Rapture Question…

    That article is well worth reading, so that you can be informed about the subject.

    😉 ….. I think I’ve read just about everything there is on this subject, and I don’t see any use in Arguing about it…
    ar·gue. give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one’s view:
    synonyms: contend · assert · maintain · insist · hold · claim · reason · allege · aver ·
    represent · opine

    I, and everyone here (assuming), and those who lurk,(assuming), may have a General time frame for the Rapture, But it’s not 100% Iron clad Proof, according to The Bible, but I have seen some really good ones as of late, that definitely made a Christian Berean Watcher stay in the Watching Game and watching for the Finish line… I have several dates I like really well, and will continue to watch as we get closer to them, Starting with the Barley Harvest.. Barley matured much faster and would be harvested sooner. The first fruits of grain offered during the Festival of Unleavened Bread would have been barley..

    A Theory…

    a set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based
    a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained
    synonyms: hypothesis · thesis · conjecture · supposition · speculation · postulation ·
    postulate · proposition · premise · surmise · assumption · presupposition · opinion · view · belief · contention · principles · ideas · concepts · philosophy · ideology · system of ideas · science

    It’s a sure thing 100% thing, the Church Body will not endure, the Time of Jacobs Trouble… As far as Watching goes, All we really have to do is Just Wait and Watch. Watching is much easier than arguing… Some will lose rewards over these things…

    Rev 3:3  Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 

    “and thou shalt not know what hour I will come”

    ~

    #128472

    Watchman35
    Participant

    I know there are some who believe that the Rev 12 sign coming up in September is quite possibly tied to the timing of the rapture. If we are still here by then, I will certainly be watching and praying. That said, I would be interested to hear from others who have any other scriptural based thoughts on what other significance this sign might hold if it is not related to the rapture. In other words, what do you believe the Lord is trying to communicate through this sign? Sometimes, even as His follower, I feel like I am really “hard-of-hearing” and struggle to understand what He is saying to His people. It seems like there must be some type of spiritual significance to it beyond the fact that He is God and He always fulfills His Word. I don’t know. Maybe that’s it. It is simply a testimony to those with eyes to see that He is and always will be faithful to fulfill His Word. Even as I typed that last sentenced, it bears witness to my spirit that that is at least part of the significance. Anyone else have any biblical thoughts on this?

    John 14:1-3 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

    #128473
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Moderator

    Heather, do you think the Revelation 12 sign has any significance at all, and if so what? I was very sceptical of the blood moons/shemitah etc and it seems nothing came of them either. The problem with these kinds of things is that they are very vague and open to interpretation as to what they actually mean.

    Truthfully, I have no idea if it is significant or not. I think it’s important to keep the verses in the context they were intended, which involve the events of Jesus’s first coming. That they are included in the text of a chapter of Revelation relates to the longstanding history of anti-Semitism and Satan’s continued pursuit to try to destroy Jesus and the people who will wind up calling Jesus back at the Second Coming. The whole purpose is to stop that, which has been Satan’s same plan throughout all the ages, ever since he was cursed in the Garden. It started with Abel in Genesis 4. Could there be a bigger link to Daniel’ 70th Week? I suppose, but it’s entirely conjecture until it does or does not happen that way. I am of the opinion there is a big trap many have fallen into regarding trying to discern what the signs mean, like what you said about the blood moons and shemitahs. It seems nothing ever winds up meaning what most people think it does or what many people want it to. I see these as the signs many people desperately hope for so we can try to determine how close we are. It makes the waiting game a little easier when we have tangible things to hold onto. Even so, when they wind up not meaning what people think, there is an even bigger let-down. Does that mean they should be avoided? No. Just perhaps that we need to consider the level of trust we put in these signs we are attempting to interpret.

    The biggest issue I have is that believers are told to walk by faith. That does not mean there won’t be signs along the way, only that our lives shouldn’t be centered around them. Romans 8 says For hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth why doth he yet hope for? We know the rapture is coming. We have been given that assurance. If it were to be tied to something tangible, would that not have been told to us in the Bible? I believe the rapture is imminent, meaning there is nothing that has to happen before it does, but I also believe it’s at a very precise time, set from the foundation of the world. Does that mean we will know which day? I don’t know.

    Enoch walked with God and was not, for God took Him. We were told of no signs that preceded or accompanied his rapture. Elijah knew which day he was going to be taken, but we were told of no signs that preceded or accompanied His rapture. We know we will be taken, but we have been told of no signs that will precede or accompany it. Does that mean there will be none? I don’t know. I trust we will know what we need to know when we need to know it. I’m not dismissing this as nothing, but in my opinion, there has yet to be credible interpretation presented as to why I should believe the theories. It would be nice if we could pin our hopes to this day, if for no other reason we would know how long we have. But that’s not the point of exercising faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I pay this no mind unless someone else brings it up. That’s just me, though…

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    #128498
    amessenger4god
    amessenger4god
    Participant

    Hey Heather, thank you for your thoughts and input. I think you make some good points, but I want to address your reply.

    The statement wasn’t directed at you. This is someone else’s theory that you’re simply promoting. It’s been posted about several times, and refutations have been given.

    That’s not accurate. As far as I know, Scott Clarke was perhaps the first to use astronomy software to discover this alignment (again, sometime in 2011 or 2012 – it’s a bit ambiguous), which he initially thought was a mid-trib sign, but I came to my own conclusions from my own independent study of it and God’s Word, as did a number of other students of Bible prophecy (Daniel Matson, Jeff Eldredge, Matt. P from Daily Crow, Jaco Prinsloo, etc). To say I’m promoting Clarke’s theory is like saying I’m just promoting Martin Luther’s theory when I preach the Gospel of Grace. The truth stands or falls on God’s Word, not on who first interpreted it. I think the Revelation 12 theory is convincing from a Scriptural standpoint – not a definite thing, but a possibility. I could be mistaken just as you could be, but I pray often for better discernment.

    To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, this stems largely from one source. Others are promoting it, but the primary research that’s being quoted is not theirs.

    I’ve studied a number of research papers from the Trinity Journal on this subject, and I believe you’re mistaken. A number of Bible scholars, especially in the 1800s and early 1900s, independently came to the conclusion that the male child of Rev. 12:5 was Jesus and His corporate Church, based on what they believed was convincing Scriptural evidence that the child couldn’t be Jesus alone.

    This is not correct.

    If and since Jesus is the bridegroom, it follows anyone from the church age who believes in Jesus is the bride.

    John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

    I believe it is. We may have to agree to disagree. The raw text of Ephesians 5:22-24 does not explicitly identify the Church as the bride of Christ, but makes an analogy ‘ὡς’ between a husband’s househould lordship and Christ and the Church.

    To be clear – I do think the Church is the bride and my original article says that. My point is that it is just one of several analogies. The most common analogy is the Body of Christ, followed next by God’s Temple. Then the analogy of the bride. As I also mentioned, the Church is also called a man in Ephesians 2:15. So the argument that the male child cannot be the Church because the Church is corporately female, doesn’t hold water. Several analogies are used and there is a basis for identifying the Church as both a male and the body of Christ in union with its head.

    I think in these kinds of discussions we often split hairs when we don’t have to. Yes, the Church is the Bride of Christ. The Church is also the Body of Christ in union with its head. And the Church is also “one new man”, “God’s Temple”, and a “holy nation”. God’s Word includes all of these.

    This could only be strictly true if there was no earthly Zion. However, there is. A nation being born in a day refers to the land of Israel and the regathering of the people to it, as referenced in Ezekiel 36-37. It regards Ezekiel’s “dry bones” prophecy. That is quite literal.

    I don’t want to belabor this point, because I largely agree with you. That said, I think it is pretty clear that Zion is often used in Scripture to denote a meaning greater than mere earthly Jerusalem. I think Isaiah 66 prophesies the rebirth of Israel, however, it also prophesies the birth of the Church from Israel. I could bring up again John’s very intentional grammatical error in Rev. 12:5, or Paul’s long discourses on how the Church grew out of Israel, but I think you are familiar with them now.

    And regarding this being “quite literal”, I think you’re not being literal enough. Ezekiel’s dry bones are still very dry. No resurrection has yet happened, which is why, imho, it is a huge stretch to connect that passage purely with 1948. A literal resurrection is coming when bones will literally be refashioned with flesh – one at the rapture and one at the end of the Tribulation.

    The mention of the church as a holy nation has a spiritual connotation, as you indicated with us being referenced as the temple of God. Further in I Peter is the reference to the church offering spiritual sacrifices, which is our earthly priestly duty. As Revelation 5 says, He hath made us unto our God kings and priests. That Zion which brought forth children is a holy nation refers to the Mosaic Covenant made between God and the children of Israel in Exodus 19. It’s also a reference to the Abrahamic Covenant and the children of Israel being special to God. This is further represented by the crown of 12 starts which represent the 12 Tribes of Israel. The inclusion of the sun and the moon, along with the 12 stars, refers to Joseph’s dream of the sun and moon and 11 stars bowing to him. That would be a reference to his mother, father, and brothers. It’s all related to Israel.

    I agree with all of this, except that Zion’s children refer only to the Mosaic covenant / Israel. The woman is definitely Israel as you’ve demonstrated. However, Isaiah 66 is the last chapter and the context is the Day of the Lord (v. 15-19), new heavens and earth (v. 22-23), and even final judgment (v. 24). In the Old Testament, Israel is barren, has no children, and can’t deliver (prophetically speaking – see Isaiah 26:16-18). That condition didn’t change in 1948. Israel was reestablished, but still in unbelief. V. 9 is clear that the child born is a miraculous birth wrought by God’s hand – of course Christ, but also the corporate nation/child brought forth in a single day (v. 8).

    Paul makes this point amazingly clear in Galatians 4:27:

    But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written:

    “Be glad, barren woman,
    you who never bore a child;
    shout for joy and cry aloud,
    you who were never in labor;
    because more are the children of the desolate woman
    than of her who has a husband.”

    Paul explicitly says our mother is heavenly Jerusalem (i.e. Zion) and he uses a prophecy in Isaiah to prove the point. Zion’s child is the Church.

    Isaiah 26 is particularly interesting, because in it we again see the imagery of the woman (Israel) in fruitless labor… but then something amazing happens: a miraculous resurrection (v. 19), followed immediately by what many pre-tribulationists think is a rapture prophecy (v. 20), which is then followed immediately by the Day of the LORD and God’s judgment on the earth (v. 21).

    This promise also lends to Revelation 5, as well as to Revelation 20 with the resurrection of the martyrs, that the church and other saints will rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years. The church does not rule independently of Christ, but rather because we are co-heirs with Him, as Romans 8 states. Since the Revelation 12 sign does not regard the Millennial Kingdom, it also cannot regard the church because the promise only extends for the church to rule with Christ in the Millennial Kingdom, not beforehand. Thus, the text does not yet apply.

    It’s interesting you say this because the timing of the child ruling is evident in Rev. 12:5. The Greek is ‘μέλλει’, which means “is about to” or “shall soon, but not yet“. It is a promise that Christ and His Church will rule with a rod of iron – soon, but not yet.

    Also, it is true that Trib saints reign with Christ (20:6), however, the key phrase “rule with a rod of iron” is only explicitly ever given to Christ (Psalm 2:9) and His Church (2:26-27). This is a big clue in my humble opinion.

    This assumes all figures mentioned must have a corporate identity. Since the rest of the text relates to Israel, it is a supposition that the church must be related, not a given.

    True – it is an assumption, but I think it is a pretty good one based on the other evidence and maintaining consistency in the text.

    The word harpazo is not found only in those two scriptures. It is used 14 times in the text of the NT, and no other references relate directly to the church, except for I Thess 4. Thus, it is also not a given that the use of the word in Revelation 12 must relate to the church.

    Yes, it is true that the word is used elsewhere in Scripture, but that isn’t the argument here. The point is that the Bible mentions Jesus’ ascension a number of times (anabaino, epairo, etc), but never calls it harpazo. Harpazo is explicitly identified with the rapture in 1 Thess. 4:17 and means a sudden snatching away (the ‘up’ is implied) by force – often used of a robbery. Jesus was not harpazo-ed. Jesus was not in danger from the dragon. Jesus was victorious and ascended gradually (Acts 1:9).

    The church is not “gestating”. We are awaiting the day of redemption wherein we receive our glorified bodies. However, being born again is not a corporate idea. It is an individual idea, and it occurs when each person believes in Jesus and is saved by grace through faith. Glorification is corporate, because the rapture is corporate. We have been begotten again unto a lively hope (I Peter 1:3). It’s already a done deal. This also presupposes a different timing of the war in heaven than is actually presented in the text of the chapter.

    I believe it is. The Church was conceived on Pentecost and has been growing and developing for two millennia. The baby is about to be born… will it happen on Sep. 23rd, 2017? I have no idea – maybe. God knows. But, I think the sign that John saw in Revelation 12 is about to appear before our very eyes.

    The biggest issue I have is that believers are told to walk by faith. That does not mean there won’t be signs along the way, only that our lives shouldn’t be centered around them.

    Yes – walk by faith, but not an uninformed faith. Wise men walked by faith when they read OT Scriptures and followed a sign. 3,000 Jews walked by faith when they placed their faith in Christ after having seen signs in the heavens (Acts 2:14-41). We see what might be “a great sign” next Fall that may point to the nearness of the rapture. On that exact day? Maybe or maybe not, but I believe it is evidence of how near we are to the fulfillment of John 14:2-3 and Isaiah 26:20:

    My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. – John 14:2-3

    and

    As a pregnant woman about to give birth
    writhes and cries out in her pain,
    so were we in your presence, Lord.
    We were with child, we writhed in labor,
    but we gave birth to wind.
    We have not brought salvation to the earth,
    and the people of the world have not come to life.

    But your dead will live, Lord;
    their bodies will rise—
    let those who dwell in the dust
    wake up and shout for joy—

    your dew is like the dew of the morning;
    the earth will give birth to her dead.

    Go, my people, enter your rooms
    and shut the doors behind you;
    hide yourselves for a little while
    until his wrath has passed by.
    See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
    to punish the people of the earth for their sins.

    – Isaiah 26:17-21

    God bless, and Christ’s blessings!
    Let’s keep looking up together even if we differ on the details. :heart:

    You lived the life I could never live,

    You died the death that I deserve,

    You rose to life and now You live,

    That's how You forgive!

    #128499
    humblehorse
    humblehorse
    Participant

    I would still argue that the man-child in Revelation 12:5 is meant to represent the Church in union with Christ

    Rev 12 v 1-2 on 23rd Sept 2017 (FoT)
    Rev 12 v 3-4 on 17th Dec 2017 (Hanukkah)
    Rev 12 v 5 on 10th Sept 2018 (FoT)

    So even if Rev 12v5 does say RAPTURE, the child is not lifted up onto the throne until FoT 2018!!!

    That’s not accurate. As far as I know, Scott Clarke was perhaps the first to use astronomy software to discover this alignment

    Scottie did find it for himself, but a chap called William Tapley (3rd Eagle of the Apocalypse!!!) found it first because I saw him present it before Scottie made his video…. trivial I know… B-)

    ....Peace, Love, Rock 'n Roll. X


    #128500
    amessenger4god
    amessenger4god
    Participant

    Hey HumbleHorse, glad to hear from you.

    Jupiter enters Libra (justice/scales/throne) at midnight on Christmas Day this year, which you can see here under the Claims And Critiques section. I’ve wondered if that might be 12:5 or if 12:5 will actually be a sign portrayed in the sky.

    Just curious how do you come to that Feast of Trumpets 2018 conclusion?

    You lived the life I could never live,

    You died the death that I deserve,

    You rose to life and now You live,

    That's how You forgive!

    #128501
    humblehorse
    humblehorse
    Participant

    Just curious how do you come to that Feast of Trumpets 2018 conclusion?

    Funnily enough I’ve just been on stellarium to have a look!

    That was from a study I did back in 2015. Back then I worked out that it was 1260 day between the 3rd Blood Moon of the Tetrad (Remember that one with all the 4’s lasting 4.44 at 44mins on 4th 4th… etc) and FoT 2018.

    I’ve just been in to have a ‘new’ look and it would appear that Jupiter goes into retrograde in Libra around Purim (1/3/18) is being lifted up through Passover (30/3/18) and is lifted by Pentecost (20/5/18)!!

    I think it’s time for me to sit down with a day calculator again!@£$%^&*( B-)

    ....Peace, Love, Rock 'n Roll. X


    #128516
    humblehorse
    humblehorse
    Participant

    My calculator exploded!! Now it’s on fire… B-)

    ....Peace, Love, Rock 'n Roll. X


    #128519

    Mike Mc
    Participant

    Scottie did find it for himself, but a chap called William Tapley (3rd Eagle of the Apocalypse!!!) found it first because I saw him present it before Scottie made his video

    I remember that, H.H., We all were joking about “The Third Eagle Eye of the Apocalypse” :whistle: It looks like he’s made another up dated video Published on May 26, 2015,
    At the 55 minute mark he mentions making it four years ago – 2015, so that would have put it at 2011, and that sounds about right… He also said the Rev 12 sign is the end of the Trib… :wacko: :yes: Yeah, ok, Oops…!

    The Bible is the Greatest Love story ever told, and Most of the world today completely rejects it…

    The biggest issue I have is that believers are told to walk by faith. That does not mean there won’t be signs along the way, only that our lives shouldn’t be centered around them

    By Faith
    Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 
    Heb 11:2  For by it the elders obtained a good report. 
    Heb 11:3  Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 
    Heb 11:4  By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 
    Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 
    Heb 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 
    Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 

    Proof, I want proof
    by Matt Slick
    This was about a guy who had a real problem about Christianity and he needed proof God was real, it didn’t end well in this story… The number one thing at Got Questions is everyone looks at, is a sign from God that He is Real…

    1. Some people seek after signs and wonders because they want confirmation of the truth of God. There is nothing inherently wrong with this desire. In fact, God willingly gave signs to Moses (Exodus 4:1-9) and Gideon (Judges 6:11-22) to confirm His word. Miracles can aid a person’s coming to faith, as in John 2:23, “Many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.”

    Better than seeking after a new miracle is taking God at His Word. Simple faith is more pleasing to the Lord than a reliance on a dazzling sensory experience. “Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’” (John 20:29).

    https://www.gotquestions.org/signs-and-wonders.html

    I know the Revelation 12 sign is a real no doubt… But I would much rather See Jesus face to face, than what He created…

    Psa 19:1  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 
    Psa 19:2  Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 
    Psa 19:3  There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/popPlayer.cfm?id=5499&rel=mcgee_j_vernon/Psa

    ~

    #128520
    Heather R
    Heather R
    Moderator

    I’m in the middle of writing about the timing of Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17, but when I’m done with that I’m going to write about the 3 parts of man and their correspondence to the 3 heavens. The second heaven, where this sign is, is where the spirit is connected; hence, the spiritual realm and the spiritual war. This is why we are told in Revelation 12 about Michael and his angels fighting with the dragon and his angels and no place being found for them any longer. Revelation 6 talks about stars falling to earth. Psalm 82 tells us thrones will be cast down, and the fallen angelic host will die like men. Daniel 7 talks about Daniel beholding until the thrones were cast down and the Ancient of Days did come. All of that starts in the second heaven and ends with final judgment on earth.

    Never once have I wanted to be rude in my responses, only forthright. Our desire should be a constant link to the third heavens, to God who is on the throne and able to save our souls. Our relationship with Him and our eternal rewards don’t come from the spiritual realm and the offerings of those things in the second heaven. They come from our link to the third heaven. That’s all done by faith, not by signs and sight. Why do you think there is so much divisiveness around this issue? Because, figuratively speaking, people are hanging out in the “heaven” where all the war takes place…………..

    Body – first heaven (earthly, temporary)
    Spirit – second heaven (spiritual realm, where our true battle takes place – Ephesians 6)
    Soul – third heaven (God’s domain, linked by faith and home of our eternal rewards)

    And lastly, the church did not come FROM Israel. If that were true, we wouldn’t be Gentiles. We would be Jews. James 3 puts this pretty candidly, although in reference to something else.

    James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

    You can’t have it both ways. We are either Jews or Gentiles, and you can’t get one from the other. In Romans 11, Paul writes we are grafted into the root of the tree – Jesus Christ. We aren’t grafted into Israel. We’re grafted into the seed of Abraham and the covenant promises because of our belief in Jesus Christ. Romans 9 is quite clear the seed of Abraham that will inherit the promises is NOT the natural seed, but the spiritual seed. To try to claim the Gentiles came from the Jews is not accurate. We are separate and distinct, and we should consider ourselves fortunate the Jews rejected Jesus and that we even got a chance to know Him.

    Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    I’ve said my piece. :rose:

    Romans1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
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